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	<title>Comments on: Anti-NROTC Groups Raise Their &#8220;Voices&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Agreed</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69250</link>
		<dc:creator>Agreed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69250</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know anybody who thinks DADT is a good policy, but it&#039;s a federal law, not a military decision.  The best way to change the policy is to lobby Congress, and the best way to do that is to get liberal-minded people into the military who can tell Congress what they believe.  You can make the argument that the best way to fight discrimination is to allow ROTC on to campus.  People who make the argument about &quot;few Columbia students would join&quot; should realize that the argument then becomes &quot;fewer GAY Columbia students (if any) would join&quot; and that renders the discrimination purely symbolic.  It&#039;s not like gay students are knocking down the door to join the military; I think there are other gay rights issues slightly more important to them.  Incidentally, I&#039;m one of the Columbia students who might have taken advantage of NROTC; instead I&#039;ll be pursuing a different path into the military, but I&#039;ll still be taking Columbia classes while on active duty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know anybody who thinks DADT is a good policy, but it&#8217;s a federal law, not a military decision.  The best way to change the policy is to lobby Congress, and the best way to do that is to get liberal-minded people into the military who can tell Congress what they believe.  You can make the argument that the best way to fight discrimination is to allow ROTC on to campus.  People who make the argument about &#8220;few Columbia students would join&#8221; should realize that the argument then becomes &#8220;fewer GAY Columbia students (if any) would join&#8221; and that renders the discrimination purely symbolic.  It&#8217;s not like gay students are knocking down the door to join the military; I think there are other gay rights issues slightly more important to them.  Incidentally, I&#8217;m one of the Columbia students who might have taken advantage of NROTC; instead I&#8217;ll be pursuing a different path into the military, but I&#8217;ll still be taking Columbia classes while on active duty.</p>
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		<title>By: Listen Closer</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69248</link>
		<dc:creator>Listen Closer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69248</guid>
		<description>Many (if not all) of the Pro-ROTC voices oppose DADT.  Most of the Pro-ROTC voices support bringing it back to Ivy League campuses so our future officers can help effect positive change, not only in terms of DADT but in other areas as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many (if not all) of the Pro-ROTC voices oppose DADT.  Most of the Pro-ROTC voices support bringing it back to Ivy League campuses so our future officers can help effect positive change, not only in terms of DADT but in other areas as well.</p>
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		<title>By: hmm</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69239</link>
		<dc:creator>hmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69239</guid>
		<description>I think the idea of a Women&#039;s college isn&#039;t really discriminatory towards men, because women&#039;s colleges advocate for the upliftment and education of women in a way that is unique to the history, experiences and issues facing that gender. All boys&#039; schools exist too, but these aren&#039;t considered discriminatory.

But here&#039;s the crux of your argument though: the military, because of it&#039;s important mission, should be exempt from the rules. Most of the pro-ROTC voices in this debate have not attempted to come up with a justification for DADT or how the ROTC&#039;s existence on campus can be fair given the existence of DADT. Instead, all I&#039;ve heard is that ROTC is &#039;too important&#039; or &#039;too great&#039; for it to get bogged down in ther ules. And sorry but in my view, the sum of all community service organizations in this country are as important and as honorable as the military. As a unit, DDC is probably more effective than having a unit of the ROTC/NROTC at Columbia (given that it is widely accepted that few CU students would join and hence the ROTC would never come here). Unless of course you feel that military service is more important and honorable than community service, but that would just make your argument is stupid as the anti-military activists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the idea of a Women&#8217;s college isn&#8217;t really discriminatory towards men, because women&#8217;s colleges advocate for the upliftment and education of women in a way that is unique to the history, experiences and issues facing that gender. All boys&#8217; schools exist too, but these aren&#8217;t considered discriminatory.</p>
<p>But here&#8217;s the crux of your argument though: the military, because of it&#8217;s important mission, should be exempt from the rules. Most of the pro-ROTC voices in this debate have not attempted to come up with a justification for DADT or how the ROTC&#8217;s existence on campus can be fair given the existence of DADT. Instead, all I&#8217;ve heard is that ROTC is &#8216;too important&#8217; or &#8216;too great&#8217; for it to get bogged down in ther ules. And sorry but in my view, the sum of all community service organizations in this country are as important and as honorable as the military. As a unit, DDC is probably more effective than having a unit of the ROTC/NROTC at Columbia (given that it is widely accepted that few CU students would join and hence the ROTC would never come here). Unless of course you feel that military service is more important and honorable than community service, but that would just make your argument is stupid as the anti-military activists.</p>
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		<title>By: NROTC supporter</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69229</link>
		<dc:creator>NROTC supporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69229</guid>
		<description>If you agree it&#039;s true, then why &quot;c&#039;mon&quot;? After all, Radcliffe was absorbed into co-ed Harvard. Why hasn&#039;t Barnard been absorbed into co-ed Columbia? And what if DDC didn&#039;t hire men? Really, my point is not to speak ill of Barnard. I believe Barnard has an important mission as an elite womens college. I don&#039;t know if Barnard&#039;s mission is as important as our military&#039;s mission, but it&#039;s important. The mission and purpose of our military is also a tad more important than DDC&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you agree it&#8217;s true, then why &#8220;c&#8217;mon&#8221;? After all, Radcliffe was absorbed into co-ed Harvard. Why hasn&#8217;t Barnard been absorbed into co-ed Columbia? And what if DDC didn&#8217;t hire men? Really, my point is not to speak ill of Barnard. I believe Barnard has an important mission as an elite womens college. I don&#8217;t know if Barnard&#8217;s mission is as important as our military&#8217;s mission, but it&#8217;s important. The mission and purpose of our military is also a tad more important than DDC&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: look</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69225</link>
		<dc:creator>look</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69225</guid>
		<description>Barnard is a women&#039;s college, and while technically your point may be valid, c&#039;mon. And to generalize that example and say that Columbia routinely violates its own policies is a stretch.

Think of it this way - if the Double Discovery Center did not allow openly gay people to volunteer with them or work on their staff, do you think that they would be allowed to run a program at Columbia? Everyone knows the DDC provides great service to the community, but having them on campus would simply be unconstitutional.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barnard is a women&#8217;s college, and while technically your point may be valid, c&#8217;mon. And to generalize that example and say that Columbia routinely violates its own policies is a stretch.</p>
<p>Think of it this way &#8211; if the Double Discovery Center did not allow openly gay people to volunteer with them or work on their staff, do you think that they would be allowed to run a program at Columbia? Everyone knows the DDC provides great service to the community, but having them on campus would simply be unconstitutional.</p>
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		<title>By: you know</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69221</link>
		<dc:creator>you know</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69221</guid>
		<description>The Barnard argument is pretty weak, imo, but as far as gender goes, Barnard does actually discriminate pretty terribly against transgendered people. Any trangendered alum will tell you that.

The point is that discrimination already exists on campus. Call it Red Cross blood drives, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, recruiting by the State Department, whatever. The military is a reflection of society, and society is pretty discriminatory. Why is the military the one institution that we can&#039;t possibly change and must therefore boycott?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Barnard argument is pretty weak, imo, but as far as gender goes, Barnard does actually discriminate pretty terribly against transgendered people. Any trangendered alum will tell you that.</p>
<p>The point is that discrimination already exists on campus. Call it Red Cross blood drives, Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, recruiting by the State Department, whatever. The military is a reflection of society, and society is pretty discriminatory. Why is the military the one institution that we can&#8217;t possibly change and must therefore boycott?</p>
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		<title>By: NROTC supporter</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69220</link>
		<dc:creator>NROTC supporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69220</guid>
		<description>Columbia already violates its own rules with Barnard. That&#039;s not to say Barnard should be banned for blatantly violating the gender and admissions rules of the discrimination policy, but it is to say the discrimination policy isn&#039;t an inflexible be-all/end-all. Columbia can and does accomodate violations of the rules when there&#039;s a greater good at stake.

I acknowledge that good people, gay and straight, including myself, are rightfully bothered by DADT. I hope that that sentiment leads to more affirmative action for reform of the law, but at the same time, I don&#039;t see that real harm will come to LGBT students at Columbia if NROTC comes back. DADT is a government policy, not Columbia&#039;s. On the other hand, there is a greater good that can be achieved with NROTC here.

Call me a hopeful idealist, I just believe that Columbia-educated Navy and USMC officers can accomplish a lot of good in this world, by leading well in the military community, and making intelligent, ethical decisions that directly affect sailors and Marines and, as importantly, the people they interact with around the world. Have you heard about what young lieutenants and captains, barely out of college, are responsible for &#039;over there&#039; in their simultaneous roles as warriors and peace-builders? It&#039;s really amazing and clear to me that Columbians can do a lot of good in those roles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Columbia already violates its own rules with Barnard. That&#8217;s not to say Barnard should be banned for blatantly violating the gender and admissions rules of the discrimination policy, but it is to say the discrimination policy isn&#8217;t an inflexible be-all/end-all. Columbia can and does accomodate violations of the rules when there&#8217;s a greater good at stake.</p>
<p>I acknowledge that good people, gay and straight, including myself, are rightfully bothered by DADT. I hope that that sentiment leads to more affirmative action for reform of the law, but at the same time, I don&#8217;t see that real harm will come to LGBT students at Columbia if NROTC comes back. DADT is a government policy, not Columbia&#8217;s. On the other hand, there is a greater good that can be achieved with NROTC here.</p>
<p>Call me a hopeful idealist, I just believe that Columbia-educated Navy and USMC officers can accomplish a lot of good in this world, by leading well in the military community, and making intelligent, ethical decisions that directly affect sailors and Marines and, as importantly, the people they interact with around the world. Have you heard about what young lieutenants and captains, barely out of college, are responsible for &#8216;over there&#8217; in their simultaneous roles as warriors and peace-builders? It&#8217;s really amazing and clear to me that Columbians can do a lot of good in those roles.</p>
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		<title>By: nope</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69219</link>
		<dc:creator>nope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69219</guid>
		<description>They simply may not have had a discriminatory policy - or student volition to enforce it - that explicitly contradicts the letter of DADT.

The legal impediment I&#039;m referring to is a contradiction of one&#039;s own constitution. For example, everyone knows about the provisions of the second amendment; now lets assume there are no state/city laws regulating guns, the University could theoretically have a rule that says &quot;no guns in the classroom&quot;. So I&#039;m talking about a violation of their own rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They simply may not have had a discriminatory policy &#8211; or student volition to enforce it &#8211; that explicitly contradicts the letter of DADT.</p>
<p>The legal impediment I&#8217;m referring to is a contradiction of one&#8217;s own constitution. For example, everyone knows about the provisions of the second amendment; now lets assume there are no state/city laws regulating guns, the University could theoretically have a rule that says &#8220;no guns in the classroom&#8221;. So I&#8217;m talking about a violation of their own rules.</p>
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		<title>By: NROTC supporter</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69216</link>
		<dc:creator>NROTC supporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69216</guid>
		<description>Missed this: &quot;there would be no legal impediment to re-allowing ROTC back on campus.&quot;

There is no legal impediment to re-allowing ROTC back on campus now. DADT, as awful as it is, is a federal law. So is the Solomon Amendment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Missed this: &#8220;there would be no legal impediment to re-allowing ROTC back on campus.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is no legal impediment to re-allowing ROTC back on campus now. DADT, as awful as it is, is a federal law. So is the Solomon Amendment.</p>
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		<title>By: NROTC supporter</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69214</link>
		<dc:creator>NROTC supporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:08:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69214</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m too lazy to google their discrimination policies to compare with ours, but are you saying that at Dartmouth, where Bollinger was provost with Army ROTC, and U.Michigan, where he was president with Army, Navy and Air Force ROTC, it was open season on LGBT students?

I wonder if military status is a protected category in their discrimination policies, like it is in ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m too lazy to google their discrimination policies to compare with ours, but are you saying that at Dartmouth, where Bollinger was provost with Army ROTC, and U.Michigan, where he was president with Army, Navy and Air Force ROTC, it was open season on LGBT students?</p>
<p>I wonder if military status is a protected category in their discrimination policies, like it is in ours.</p>
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		<title>By: Irony</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69211</link>
		<dc:creator>Irony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 21:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69211</guid>
		<description>is a bitch. So? He was at a different university with a different policy on discrimination.

You may even be surprised to learn that he is not in fact in love with the many alumni who have contributed to the capital campaign, even if he conveyed that impression at alumni functions.

As for the question of anti-DADT vs. anti-Military, I think that if DADT were repealed, there would be no legal impediment to re-allowing ROTC back on campus. Yes, some anti-war groups might oppose it on the grounds that they love peace, but the massive opposition from the Queer community would subside - it would in fact be a victory for them and they might even support enlistment. So while it might be a good academic question, the reality is that if DADT were repealed, the ROTC would probably be allowed back onto campus, and people would celebrate the progression towards a more tolerant military. Most students, in my view, would support a return, because most people are intelligent enough to realize that the nature of a military as imperialistic, aggressive or defensive is a function of foreign policy, ie, who you elect to office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>is a bitch. So? He was at a different university with a different policy on discrimination.</p>
<p>You may even be surprised to learn that he is not in fact in love with the many alumni who have contributed to the capital campaign, even if he conveyed that impression at alumni functions.</p>
<p>As for the question of anti-DADT vs. anti-Military, I think that if DADT were repealed, there would be no legal impediment to re-allowing ROTC back on campus. Yes, some anti-war groups might oppose it on the grounds that they love peace, but the massive opposition from the Queer community would subside &#8211; it would in fact be a victory for them and they might even support enlistment. So while it might be a good academic question, the reality is that if DADT were repealed, the ROTC would probably be allowed back onto campus, and people would celebrate the progression towards a more tolerant military. Most students, in my view, would support a return, because most people are intelligent enough to realize that the nature of a military as imperialistic, aggressive or defensive is a function of foreign policy, ie, who you elect to office.</p>
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		<title>By: NROTC supporter</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69203</link>
		<dc:creator>NROTC supporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69203</guid>
		<description>&quot;He cited the low numbers of minority officers in the military&quot;

When Bollinger&#039;s affirmative action case won in the Supreme Court a few years ago, one of the main reasons cited was the advocacy of military leaders who support affirmative action in universities order so that ROTC-trained officers will be more diverse. It&#039;s ironic then that Bollinger, who worked so closely with military leaders to win this career-defining Supreme Court case, would defend the absence of ROTC at his own academic institution.

As a on-time enlisted soldier, I worked with/for male and female officers. Therefore, it&#039;s hard for me to think of military officers of any race or gender as oppressed people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He cited the low numbers of minority officers in the military&#8221;</p>
<p>When Bollinger&#8217;s affirmative action case won in the Supreme Court a few years ago, one of the main reasons cited was the advocacy of military leaders who support affirmative action in universities order so that ROTC-trained officers will be more diverse. It&#8217;s ironic then that Bollinger, who worked so closely with military leaders to win this career-defining Supreme Court case, would defend the absence of ROTC at his own academic institution.</p>
<p>As a on-time enlisted soldier, I worked with/for male and female officers. Therefore, it&#8217;s hard for me to think of military officers of any race or gender as oppressed people.</p>
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		<title>By: Just wondering</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69165</link>
		<dc:creator>Just wondering</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 15:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69165</guid>
		<description>Do you think that the tone is that Columbia is anti-DADT or anti military?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think that the tone is that Columbia is anti-DADT or anti military?</p>
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		<title>By: opinion..</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69153</link>
		<dc:creator>opinion..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69153</guid>
		<description>i&#039;m pro-nrotc if and only if...
nrotc candidates have weekly performances of &quot;in the navy&quot; on the sundial. that&#039;s my deal-breaker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;m pro-nrotc if and only if&#8230;<br />
nrotc candidates have weekly performances of &#8220;in the navy&#8221; on the sundial. that&#8217;s my deal-breaker.</p>
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		<title>By: typo</title>
		<link>http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices/#comment-69152</link>
		<dc:creator>typo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://bwog.com/2008/11/11/anti-nrotc-groups-raise-their-voices#comment-69152</guid>
		<description>sorry, I meant to say &quot;asked her what a more democratic/non-hierarchical military would look like&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sorry, I meant to say &#8220;asked her what a more democratic/non-hierarchical military would look like&#8221;</p>
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