264 CommentsWe confirmed earlier that Michael Wymbs had been dispatched from the Manhattan Detention Center, and have now learned that Adam Klein has also been released on bail, according to a quote from Klein’s lawyer, Hershel Katz, in DNA Info and Klein’s Department of Correction information. Wymbs and Klein’s parents each posted $35,000 bail. The University is not commenting at this time about whether any of the arrested students will be permitted to finish their semesters.
Update, 10 p.m.: Oof! Spec has a statement from Shollenberger announcing that the three fraternities involved in the drug bust have received interim suspensions. Full email is below.
Update, 12:40 a.m.: Early this morning, all members of the Greek community received an official statement (.doc) signed by leaders in the Inter Greek Council. “The entire Greek community was disappointed,” reads the statement. “The IGC will be in complete cooperation” with the investigation conducted by the University and NYPD. Bwog has emailed leaders in the organizations involved with the incident for further comment.
Shollenberger’s email:
“The Division of Student Affairs has issued an interim suspension of the Iota Chapter of the Alpha Epsilon Pi fraternity, the Iota Lambda Chapter of the Pi Kappa Alpha fraternity, and the Lambda Chapter of the Psi Upsilon fraternity. The suspension of these organizations is the result of the NYPD’s arrests of several fraternity members who are alleged to have taken part in illegal drug activity within Columbia’s fraternity houses on West 114th Street.
According to Columbia’s Fraternity and Sorority Life Community Standards and Greek Judicial Board Handbook, a fraternity or sorority can be suspended if determined “necessary to promote the best interest” of the chapter and the University. Given the severity of the alleged behavior, we believe these interim suspensions are in the best interest of our community at this time. The three named chapters have been instructed to cease all activities, including and not limited to recruitment, initiation, and social events pending further review. We have notified the chapters’ national organizations about the suspensions.
The Division of Student Affairs will initiate an internal review of the three fraternity chapters and the Intercultural House (ICH), where the alleged behavior also took place. We plan to work closely with student leaders, the fraternity and sorority community (including national organizations), and the ICH to assess the scope of the problem and what reforms may be necessary to address these issues. We envision the involvement of students, administrators, and other members of our campus community in these conversations. Terry Martinez, Dean of Community Development and Multicultural Affairs, will oversee this review.
We remain most concerned about the health and welfare of our students and will utilize this review process as an opportunity to further educate students about their decisions and how they impact our community. In the meantime, information about Columbia’s drug and alcohol policies may be found in Essential Policies for the Columbia Community. Student advisers and Health Services remain resources for students seeking more information or support.
As part of our review, we are also committed to exploring the role of fraternity and sorority life and special interest communities on campus. We look forward to working with students to ensure all recognized organizations provide students with an enriching experience that benefits the University community.
We recognize there will be a number of questions regarding the anticipated duration of the suspension, the review process, potential outcomes, and numerous other factors. While we are not yet in a position to answer these questions, please know we are committed to conducting a timely and thorough review.”
Kevin G. Shollenberger
Associate Vice President for Undergraduate Student Life, Arts and Sciences
Dean of Student Affairs
Columbia College and The Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science
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264 Comments
@I would suggest we call this whole fiasco by taking part of the name from Opperation Ivy League…HOW ABOUT IVYGATE?
@Intercultural House Consequences I think the Intercultural House should be in as much trouble as the frats. The point of the Intercultural House and the frat houses are to form a small community within our school and this is created by weekly or monthly meetings with everyone in the respected groups and Columbia gives these groups private brownstones to fulfill this mission. Since this houses to not have RAs or CAs the housemates are supposed to monitor each other. Recent events show that this has failed and I think the Intercultural House and the frats involved should lose housing; however, they can still be student organized groups.
In any event, I think the Intercultural House should have the exact same consequences as the frats.
@Anonymous I think the Intercultural House should be in as much trouble as the frats. The point of the Intercultural House and the frat houses are to form a small community within our school and this is created by weekly or monthly meetings with everyone in the respected groups and Columbia gives these groups private brownstones to fulfill this mission. Since this houses to not have RAs or CAs the housemates are supposed to monitor each other. Recent events show that this has failed and I think the Intercultural House and the frats involved should lose housing; however, they can still be student organized groups.
In any event, I think the Intercultural House should have the exact same consequences as the frats.
@anon i agree drug dealers are dealers whether within CU or outside it but I cant help but wonder, other colleges have students doing drugs too so where do they get their drugs from? There must be dealers in every school.
So why are they being specifically targeted? It seems clear that NYPD is making an example of them.
@Anonymous Can you post pictures of Megan Asper and Miron Sarzynski? Seems a little unfair that these kids have their faces in the news but the true scumbags have yet to be revealed.
@parrot Klein’s fb picture is of him with a parrot on his shoulder. typical drug dealer.
@hahahha let the frats fryyyyyyyyy baby they are GONE-ZO!
@not THAT horny! WOW, did anyone check out this page on the perez/vincenzo clown?
http://crushable.com/other-stuff/your-new-crush-columbia-universitys-modeling-drug-dealer-jose-stephan-perez/
@java addict So the three not out on bail are being held at The Tombs, right? My understanding is that it is not exactly a nice place.
Any idea under what conditions? Are they in a holding zone or some sort of “general population” area?
@law & order no idea what conditions, and obviously the place is bad. but not as bad as it would be once they’re convicted, as in sing sing. the tombs have so much movement in and out that they’ll probably be under the radar and won’t get swept into being somebody’s girlfriend just yet. and they’re low-level ivy league drug dealers, not pedophiles. not exactly #1 on the “i want to shiv you just because you exist” scale.
@Zack Sheppard Before you go judging other frat boys or these guy’s friends, you have to remember that these guys haven’t always been tied up in this mess. Two or three years ago, they were just normal Columbia freshmen like the rest of us, and they joined clubs and made friendships that last to this day. The fact that these five got mixed up in this doesn’t mean you, the university, or the NYPD have the right to make judgements about their friends or about our decision to send these five our hopes for the best possible exit from this. That would be as foolish as accusing the entire engineering student council of dealing drugs just because Wymbs was a member.
I hope that you’ll also remember that up until three days ago they were all members of our community, just like you and me. Don’t let what they are accused of now and the sensationalism of the media make your forget that these are five terrified 20-somethings. They remain human though they are being brought face to face with the stupidity of their actions.
(This is signed with my name above, because there has been too much anonymous hatred spread in these comments)
@a friend guide these lost sheep bwog commenters back to calmer, less judgmental pastures, mr. sheppard! hallelujah!
@Zack Remain anonymous for the love of sheep.
@that's so Dartmouth.
@Emme Wait, wasn’t Stefan here on a full ride via Bill Gates?
@Anonymous 11 grand over 5 months for 5 students, 440 per student per month.
this is nothing and vincenzo was on the low end, (30k bail) while Harrison had 75K on him. Is it clear who sold what and what exactly they are facing? If they plead guilty will it make a difference? If they nabbed the suppliers they have nobody to snitch on and get a reduced sentence right?
@Alumna Usually pleading guilty gets a reduced sentence. Combo of 1) taking responsibility for your actions and 2) not wasting the courts time/money.
They have the suppliers but they probably want to go after them for as much as they can. Right now they probably have them on conspiracy to kidnap and torture and drug sales, but they will want to ramp this up as much as possible and getting these kids to testify against them will do that because they can increase the amounts of drugs they’re on the hook for. I would imagine in turn they will try and use this to find out who those suppliers were buying from. Depending on how scary those people are, the suppliers will either flip and turn in their suppliers or take the jail time because they’d rather take the risks that come with prison vs the risks that come with turning in and testifying against their suppliers.c
@Witness protection anyone? anyone?? Bueller? anyone anyone?
@Alumna Yeah they’re not going to put the suppliers in witness protection for life which is basically what would be required to ensure no repercussions.
@To all who keep citing these numbers: Please keep in mind that the $11k was only what was sold to cops. Chances are that is a fraction of the entire operation.
@anon I know or know of all of the five, like I’m sure many of you do. Just want to point out that, while they all fucked up, it’s a bit unfair to lump all of these guys in together as the “C5” who somehow are a homogenous group of greedy, privileged, sinister drug dealers. we only have a vague idea of how the different kinds of drugs were dispersed among these dudes from the police reports, but Chris, for example, was only taken in for weed. Your particular feelings on marijuana notwithstanding, it is without question the least dangerous drug of the group. I’d say it’s a different degree of magnitude from, say, whoever was fucking with cocaine.
Just because the media is going to sensationalize this beyond recognition doesn’t mean we have to. Let’s have our different opinions about this, but it would be a shame if we allowed our urge to speculate distort the facts of the case.
@umm he’s just as guilty. It was most likely an arbitrary assignment, it’s not like they had a meeting about what their preferences of drugs to sell. He could have sold anything is my point, it’s still drugs.
@You will all read this 1. Because seriousla you guys
2. people tend to read shit in a list, as opposed to a fucking essay.
3. No one likes reading essays, except your uni writing teacher.
4. your list doesn’t have to make sense!
@Anonymous Anonymous, is your statement (“you are not a parent”) directed at me? I was the one who invited folks to reflect on these unfortunate kids (and their parents) and the scapegoating of the three frats. If so, why do you think that?
@Anonymous Anonymous · Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 · 9 December 2010 at 2:05 AM · Reply · Track I think you are not a parent
@Ghost of William F Buckley Jr This is SO meta.
@Alumna I feel bad for these kids. I feel worse for people who get arrested for the same crimes because they LITERALLY have no other way to make enough to feed themselves and their kids. The people who cannot afford to retain private lawyers, who go to prison, who lose custody of their kids for good, who come out and are completely unemployable and who will spend the rest of their lives in and out of jail. The system is totally fucking broken and until we get a sensible drug policy and stop locking people up for small time dealing/weed at all it will continue to be so. But that story I outlined happens every. fucking. day. And its tragic. These kids will be fine. It sucks and I feel for them so much. But they will be ok. Lets get perspective.
@Anonymous In New York State, small time drug offenses are no longer subject to mandatory minimums. They could conceivably just get probation.
@Anonymous As the parent of a Columbia student who is devastated by the arrest of one of his good friends, I invite everyone to pause for a minute to reflect on the ruined lives of these students, and the grief of their families and friends. These kids were dumb, and perhaps deserve whatever punishment they are receiving and will receive, but my heart goes out to them and their shattered dreams.
On a different note, I find the administration’s focus on suspending the three frats disingenuous and reeking of scapegoat hunger. Why is the intercultural house today conducting business as usual? Why isn’t there an internal investigation of Columbia housing and its security protocols (at least as they apply to East Campus)?
@Anonymoose the frats are special because they get special privileges and special housing and get to do special bonding exercises and have an admissions process. In exchange, they are responsible for any shit that goes down within their special clubhouse. Obviously, shit went down. And now, there’s an internal preliminary investigation going on. No doubt that the EC kids’ unlucky suitemates will be getting internally investigated too.
@EC Resident Agreed!
The probation prevents the frats from “recruitment, initiation, and social events”. Last time I checked, EC suites weren’t allowed to recruit new members, haze people (sorry, initiate), or host registered parties and social events. Indeed, with the administration breathing down their neck, it’s kind of like the frats have RA’s now too. Welcome to normal dorm life.
@Anonymous I would argue that Intercultural House is a special “club house” too. I am amused that 1 day after the arrests they end out an e-mail recruiting people to live in the IRC next year.
@Anonymous My heart goes out to THEIR FAMILIES, who probably thought their kids were up here studying and getting an amazing education, and had no idea about their drug use.
My heart does not go out to the students. They brought this on themselves, and they should have to pay the same consequences as everyone else. Of course it was lucrative- its illegal. They made big money because they took big risks.
@Anonymous random thoughts:
1. 1020 owner says he knows Obamas former coke dealer. A CU tradition?
2. Mexican drug cartels could resort to turn ppl into junky kidnappings,ex: see movie Traffic.
3. Customers and friends of the columbia 5 carry on in butler as if nothing happened.
4. Seems like super rich coke users never get busted.
5. This all stems from drunk and drugged nightlife being in vogue
@Ghost of William F Buckley Jr The name “Operation Ivy League” reeks of class warfare.
@Anonymous Booze and weed is all I need
@yeezy taught me Kanye says, “No more drugs for me. Pussy and religion is all I need.”
@My complaint about the NYPD Even as I sit here, I can’t believe I’m writing this. I’ve never been one to voice my opinions in such a public manner. But after learning that the NYPD wants to truck away our freedoms for safekeeping, I felt I at least had to set a few things straight. I’m sure that everyone reading this is already familiar with its cuckoo warnings so I’ll spare you the sordid details. Instead, I’ll simply summarize with the comment that time cannot change the NYPD’s behavior. Time merely enlarges the field in which the NYPD can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, perpetuate what we all know is a corrupt system.
I will not quibble with the NYPD as to whether or not its popularity is overrated. Instead, I’ll simply state that the NYPD looks down with a really limitless condescension on anyone who has not been dragged through the obligatory schools and had the necessary knowledge pumped into him and leave it at that. Certainly, if you hear the NYPD spouting off about how it has a fearless dedication to reason and truth, you should tell it that as uncivilized as it might sound, it goes ga-ga for any type of interdenominationalism you can think of. Better yet, tell it to stop getting its opinions from pusillanimous jabberers and start doing some research of its own. Unlike the NYPD, when I make a mistake I’m willing to admit it. Consequently, if—and I’m bending over backwards to maintain the illusion of “innocent until proven guilty”—it were not actually responsible for trying to produce a new generation of Dadaism-prone bribe-seekers whose opinions and prejudices, far from being enlightened and challenged, are simply legitimized, then I’d stop saying that the really interesting thing about all this is not that the NYPD has inherited the whole of its little stock of phrases and notions, which it is pleased to call “ideas”, from bilious deadbeats. The interesting thing is that if there’s an untold story here, it’s that it has hatched all sorts of callow plans. Remember the NYPD’s attempt to empty the meaning of such concepts as “self,” “justice,” “freedom,” and other profundities? No? That’s because the NYPD is so good at concealing its prurient, nutty activities.
Having studied the NYPD’s charges and finding them groundless, I must now tell the world that if anything, it hates people who have huge supplies of the things it lacks. What the NYPD lacks the most is common sense, which underlies my point that its prophecies manifest themselves in two phases. Phase one: engender ill will. Phase two: make empty promises. Let me point out that the reader who has followed me through this lengthy letter will have been able to gather an idea of the NYPD’s general character and disposition. Hence, I shall conclude simply by stating that to the NYPD, acting like a benighted warlord is a lot of fun.
@This is why I hate college Paragraphs of bullshit just to say don’t trust the police.
@igorant liberal, just stop talking please
@Anonymous There is still the possibility that they done gone and played a prank on you and me.
@Anonymous I think the NYPD handled this entire situation very poorly. Let’s just consider the title ‘Operation Ivy League.’ The name just says that a major point of the bust was to take down these guys simply because of where they attend university. There is something incredibly disconcerting about that. Further, the fact remains that the Columbia administration was not informed about any of this until the last possible moment. Since the alleged drug dealing was occurring within university housing, shouldn’t Columbia have been told about it? That suggests to me that it was the publicity of the bust that was desired as much as the arrests. If Columbia had been informed, the arrests would have likely been much less public and the students would have likely been dealt with internally. Obviously, what was occurring was illegal, but there is plenty of illegal activity occurring in this city and on this campus. Additionally, one of the narcotics units within the NYPD spent five full months on this investigation. I understand going after the suppliers, but five months and $11,000 on five college students? Their ‘business’ wasn’t any more substantial than that of the other drug dealers on campus. And if the goal was really to find downtown suppliers, why are they looking in Morningside Heights? It’s not like Columbia is the only school in the city with a prevalence of drugs.
So what was really achieved? There are still drugs and drug dealers on campus and that isn’t going to change anytime soon. While these five students are obviously no longer dealing and the suppliers were arrested, the same outcome could have been achieved by contacting the university. Yes, what they were doing was illegal and they got caught. Yes, they should (and will) be punished. But they should not be punished in a way that is intended to ruin their lives. The Columbia administration will probably expel these five, but to do so would be avoiding the university’s culpability in the matter. In the end, it’s just very sad.
@Anonymous You do realize that the five guys who were arrested were big fucking patsies for their primary drug supplier. A supplier who was willing to kidnap and torture his “fellow” drug suppliers. It started out with a crimestoppers tip. You expect them to *ignore* that? Then, in the course of their investigation, they found out about the big fish. Do you expect the NYPD to arrest solely the major suppliers, but not the patsies that are just as culpable?
And there is no way you can do this kind of bust “quietly”. One, it’s pretty damn certain that your indicted suspect is gonna be home in the morning. Two, you need to preserve evidence. Give them any advance warning, all those pills and pot will go straight down the toilet.
They should be expelled. They knew the risks involved, and now they’re paying for it.
@Very much agree Besides the point of whether it was right/wrong to arrest these guys (I think it was right), the way they made it a spectacle for publicity sake shows how unthoughtful the NYPD is and how image focused they are instead of catching criminals. Did they need BATTERING RAMS and multiple cars to make an arrest? I mean if police show up at my EC door I’m pretty sure I’m going to let them in, nevermind a whole fucking squad.
The police were obviously trying to make a point specifically by getting these kids are making a big spectacle out of it. This could have been done much quieter and perhaps more effectively. If part of their plan is to have the students give up more information about suppliers, I’m sure a lot of those suppliers right now are either getting out of town or keeping an extremely low profile. Had the students been quietly taken in and questioned, I bet their investigation could have been more effective
@Anonymous If the police shows up at your door, and you have drugs, you’re gonna:
1) Get rid of the drugs.
2) Open the door.
The battering ram is there so that the suspect doesn’t have time to do #1.
Multiple cars for multiple locations. And the fact that you have to ensure that the other residents in the brownstone don’t do anything funny.
@Anon Well this was fairly standard for a drug bust. Drug busts are pretty much the textbook exception to the knock and announce rule. Preservation of evidence and all that. Spending that amount to get an iron clad case against the distributors so they will instantly flip and testify against the suppliers? Also standard. Buying an eight one time is not going to cut it because you need to really be able to threaten jail time.
If the cops had done this to someone dealing coke and POUNDS of weed out of their apt in Harlem people wouldn’t bat an eyelid. It’s just because they’re Columbia students. And yes maybe the NYPD are taking some form of vindictive pleasure in calling this operation Ivy League, but maybe thats because students at Columbia seem to think they’re above the law.
@Anonymous Considering some of the comments and upvotes in these threads, yeah, Columbians sure do think they’re better than everyone.
@These are solid points seriousla you guys, but I have a feeling you all extracted them from a dream I had. This is basically plagiarism, a matter the university takes “very seriousla you guys.” Im seriousla.
oh yea side note, fucking bwog stop inverting words in the recaptcha. It’s elementary, im seriousla.
@Anonymous how do you know this?
@Overheard at Public Safety HQ They are doing a full investigation on cell phone text messages sent from those who got busted yesterday. Which means that all students who contacted them via text message are being investigated too.
@Holy shit I didn’t even think of that. That’s a guaranteed way to put a major dent to the university’s drug problem. Boy, I can’t wait for this other shoe to drop.
@Anonymous somehow doubt this
@I know NYPD would be the ones doing the investigating
@Anonymous obvious troll is obvious
@anonymous Did the one who lives in EC also belong to a frat?
@WHY are there so many comments? can someone suck my vaj please?
@Anonymous Because it’s a big story, and maybe
@but you know... my vaj is a pretty “big story” too… maybe, if you got a big pencil, you can help me write my story’s climax.
@ready whenever you are.
@Well... it’s been like three minutes already and your pencil still doesnt seem to be sharpened. Do you have writers block or something?
@Hey baby Forget that fool and get with the real writing tool. Together, you and I, we’ll write a happy ending.
@Anonymous This looks like something from bored@butler.
@Clever except way more clever. who is responsible for this?
@alum going to college does not allow you to be above the law.
@SIC member Shut down the offending frats and replace them with new Special Interest Communities!
The existing ones are already so awesome — Potluck House, GreenBorough, Writer’s House, Q House, and all the rest.
Instead of temporarily suspending these frats or even shutting them down so other frats can take their place and history can repeat itself ( Beta was shut down in 2000), why not use this opportunity to rededicate these brownstones to fostering Columbia’s non-Greek (and non-drug dealing) community?
PS – yes, I know one of the guys who got busted was in the IRC, but it’s not a typical SIC — the only other ones in brownstones (Potluck and GreenBorough) house a CA so dumb shit like this can’t happen.
@Sorry but SIC is not as inclusive as everyone wants you to think.
There is a huge sense of exclusivity there.
@SIC member Not what I meant at all – I meant I’d rather see another (exclusive) cultural house on campus than a new/improved Greek one that brings Columbia shame.
Of course SICs are exclusive like frats, but they at least foster community around values besides drinking and dealing. Go ahead and thumb this down, but everyone has always known where to turn for Adderall on up to hardcore drugs, and Columbia’s kidding itself if it thinks putting these frats on ‘interim suspension’ or forcing them out for identical groups with different combinations of Greek letters will do anything.
@Anonymous Ok, I will “thumb this down”
Thumbs down.
@OMG observation! So many kids in butler today are either falling asleep, because Adderall sales have gone down in the past couple of days!
@Yerr, Let’s call for a separation of EDUCATION and STATE.
You go to college to test your intelligence and to learn shit, not to prove that you’re a good law abiding citizen. Their degrees shouldn’t be taken away for selling drugs. DRUGS and DEGREES have nothing in common.
@more likely it’s in support of the Dream Act, which was voted on today
@INCEPTION ahhhhhhhh
@Curious but does anyone have any commentary on Vincenzo’s facebook quote the night before his arrest?
“Your back is wet from all the tears you have cried, you are disillusioned from all those years worth of lies, Lady Liberty needs new glasses for her diminished eyes, The American Dream is a mirage you have come to realize, They can try to arrest and deport you, but your spirit will never die.”
this is eerily precient – was he expecting something? was he referring to the arrest of the drug dealer?
@Anonymous nah that’s pretty much his standard fb status
@Anonymous I really think it’s just “cryptic yet enigmatic Facebook which only I and my select group of chums will ever hope to understand because of its deep and riveting meaning to this very moment in my life.”
So basically, just like any other Facebook status update.
Did you hear that? That’s the sound of me blowing your mind.
@maybe the recent debates about the DREAM Act, perhaps.
@Anonymous Oh no! Columbia is suspending social events of all three frats while it does its investigations. What’s so wrong with that? It’s not like Columbia is kicking all the residences out onto the streets. They are stopping social events
I never suggested that all of the frats knew about what was going on in their own houses. I just simply mentioned that it is inaccurate to make the claim that none of these fraternities were accomplices or at least implicitly involved by not reporting the crimes earlier in the alleged criminal behavior that happened in any of the houses.
@Anonymous why should the members of the fraternity have their events taken away from them? It’s not only events such as mixers they are taking away but initiation and formals. The pledges weren’t even part of the fraternity during the beginning of the investigation but yet they are having their opportunity to become and initiated brother taken away from them just because one person in the fraternity fucked up.
@How did you even get in here?? Nobody has made the claim that none of the fraternities were involved—the only claim is that we also don’t know they they were
The problem with fraternity suspension isn’t that people have a problem with them being placed on social suspension–as a housing community they have proved there are serious issues with how they conduct security in their house and should be place on suspension until a more throrough investigation is done with more permanent solutions to prevent this behavior in the future
The problem with their suspension is that it is being unfairly directed at ONLY fraternity housing which were NOT THE ONLY housing that demonstrated poor security measures and mechanisms to uphold university-wide community and housing standards.
@FYI i just want to say kudos to bwog and spec for doing some pretty awesome reporting–finding real stuff out, forestalling the spread of wild rumors, and giving us more factual information than most of the national news outlets have been. and also right before finals, when i’m sure all of you have tons of other stuff to be doing. well done!
@Anish Thanks! We really appreciate it :)
@Anonymous i want to make sweet love to you…while high
@Anonymous awkard…this was meant to be for emma watson
@Yeah, Thank you so much. It’s been a tough time dealing with the fact that two of my friends are sitting in a detention center right now, no matter what stupid shit they did. Your and Spec’s coverage have really been the only thing on point about this behemoth.
@Emma Watson Wow with all this drama about I wish I had gone to Columbia after all
@Anonymous nah, cuz now coke prices are up
@Emma Watson Obviously, I’m not poor.
@Anonymous Those of you who keep hammering in the “they-knowingly-broke-the-law” point: do you really think it’s that simple? And do you think the law is a perfect structure that should (or even can) guide the behavior of every human being who lives under it?
@Well, let's see how simple it is: -They sold drugs.
-They sold drugs from some pretty bad people.
-Selling of illegal drugs is illegal and (most of us) have been raised not to sell drugs because we’ve learned that its a) illegal, b) breaking the law, c) can get you in prison, d) can get you hurt or killed, e) drugs have ruined some people’s lives.
-They had an opportunity that thousands of other kids didn’t have (an education at Columbia) and have effectively thrown away that future as a result of their actions.
-While I don’t believe the law is perfect and can guide everyone, that doesn’t mean that you can’t understand the letter of the law, and the consequences of breaking it.
-Until there is evidence that they were forcibly coerced into selling drugs, or had absolutely no other means to pay for their college education, I believe it really is that simple.
@Anonymous that’s fine, i just happen to think it’s incredibly complex. there are a lot of bigger things at play here on the societal scale and i don’t think it can all be reduced to the free will of the individual to either break the law and be a bad person or leave it alone and be a good one.
@well... it kind of IS that simple: there are laws, these students knew the laws, and they broke them.
i know chris and i sympathize with him and the other students and am disheartened to think of how their lives will be affected by this, but when it comes down to it, those facts are not in dispute.
no, the law is not perfect. it can never BE perfect. and if you think that the purpose of law is to “guide the behavior of every human being” then i daresay you should probably re-take CC. however, none of that shakes the fact that laws – however imperfect – exist, and these students knowingly broke them. it’s unfortunate, but it is what it is.
@Anonymous the stance that the law should guide everyone’s behavior is not mine, it’s the one i’m criticizing. yes, there are laws, and yes, they knowingly broke them, but does that really encapsulate the issue for you? the “facts” are the “facts,” as you say, but i don’t think that’s the whole story. they live in a fucked-up, money-driven society and attend a similarly structured institution, and i think that makes things far less simple.
@Anonymous How are you planning to change things if you are so unhappy with the system? At what point does the society we live in legitimize our behavior? I feel like you are clearly very reasonable, so I am just trying to understand what you are protesting against and at what point individual responsibility comes in. Yes, society is quite complex, but unfortunately for these students, the consequences of their actions are quite simple.
@well yeah but... “they live in a fucked-up, money-driven society and attend a similarly structured institution,”
so do WE. so does EVERYONE here.
“…and i think that makes things far less simple.”
and that means that it’s not that simple for any of us — the decision to NOT deal drugs is just as complicated a decision as is making the choice TO do it. the decision NOT to cheat on an exam even when we know so many people who do it and get away with it is just as complicated as is the decision TO do it. (disclaimer: i’m not saying cheating = dealing drugs, i’m just talking about behaviors that have negative consequences in general, of which cheating is an example…as is drinking 4 liters of soda a day, but the cheating example is slightly more relevant to us students, no?)
though to be clear, i don’t have ANY moral qualms with these students. deciding not to deal drugs doesn’t make me a “better” person than those who do, nor does the decision to deal drugs make them “worse” people than me. i also agree with that i think (??) your view is, which is that drug laws in this country need to be seriously re-evaluated.
but — i just don’t see a reason or a need to make excuses for these students. we are all (reasonably) good people who (sometimes) make bad decisions for any number of (various) reasons and we (oftentimes) get away with them…but sometimes? sometimes we don’t.
@Anonymous They should’ve paid their loans like the rest of the majority of college graduates would, with the future salaries they would’ve been earning with an Ivy League degree, rather than shortcut it by pushing drugs on campus.
Sure, they might’ve been intelligent. However, they were clearly not intelligent enough to know when to stop or not to have started dealing drugs in the first place. They should’ve used their earnings as “a future statistician, a future biochemist, a future anthropologist, engineer, writer, psychologist” to pay for the education that helped get them there in the first place.
And for complaining about the NYPD ruining these kids’ lives by locking them up and publicly embarrassing them….those “kids” brought it on themselves. Whether from the Ivy League or the street corner, a drug dealer is a drug dealer who is knowingly breaking the law.
The CU5, did you wanna finance your college education? You should’ve done it like the rest of us, and the rest of the world, has, for years.
@Anonymous how are the anthropologist and the writer supposed to pay off $200k in piled-up loans with insane interest rates?
@Anonymous by not becoming a fucking anthropologist.
You don’t have a god damn right to be a d-bag graduate student. If you can’t pay off your debt, then you bet wrong, and you are fucked. That doesn’t mean you get to break the law.
I will be close to 100k in debt after i graduate because I am betting that I will make enough money to pay that off. Does that limit what careers I can pursue, sure. But so does not going to an ivy league school, or not going to a school at all.
We have incredibly forgiving financial aid. I would bet that those kids who couldn’t afford to post bail are also not paying a dime in tuition.
@Anonymous i don’t find it so easy to reduce my education to the salary it will allow me to attain in the future, and i don’t understand how your pathetic worship of money and the law gives you the right to make these judgments about other people’s lives.
@Anon So by your logic people are entitled to get an ivy league education, do whatever job they want afterwards and then break whatever laws they desire to make the money to make up the difference between the cost of their education and the amount their desired job actually pays?
@Anonymous i never said anything about who was entitled to what, but if you’re asking my opinion, i prefer their behavior to yours. self-righteous sheep like you are the reason the world is such an overwrought mess.
@Anon Well I’m not the person that posted the above thing and I’m not entirely sure what about my behavior is so offensive. BUT I will say that one of the reasons that the world is such a mess is that people borrow and are allowed to borrow money at a far higher rate than they can ever pay back, not because people feel obliged to try and get a well paying job to pay back loans rather than becoming a poet. Get job, payback loans, then get job you actually want. Not THAT complicated. Its not like I’m saying someone never deserves to be an anthropologist or a poet. Just that you have to do what it takes to legally pay back the money you borrow first.
@Anon Get a job? Plenty of people work to put themselves through school. It sucks, but they do it. If these kids wanted to pay their way by dealing drugs than that is their prerogative, but the reason its so lucrative is because it carries the risk of exactly this happening. It sucks and I am sure they are good and nice people. But they essentially just gambled and lost.
@Anonymous Everyone here apparently loves making swooping generalizations and judging how these people should be treated based off of some high and mighty attitude. Stop blaming this on “rich kids” and “fraternities”. The fact is you know (and I know) nothing about these kids and what goes on in their lives. If you disagree with what they did, great- your opinion is very valid, but what do you get out of trashing them without knowing them and making claims about their parents?
@Anonymous RA’s can actually be hyper-vigilant in preventing parties from here on out in E.C. (i.e. by actually stopping them when they see them–sucks, but unfortunately fellow members of our community have brought ramifications to us all) and there can be more stringent requirements on signing in visitors at E.C.
Also you could cancel any “official events” at EC as these fraternities would now be required to do as well
@Anonymous People seem to forget that while 4/5 students were in greek life, 2 of the 5 facilities where these deals occurred were not greek housing. While I am not in disagreement with the interim probation of these three chapters, I think it is unfair to just target the greek houses involved and not the ICH or even EC. It is not known yet whether the other members of these students’ fraternities were aware of their illegal activity and even that it was occurring in their house. The only rational argument to put these chapters and “houses” on suspension right now is that those who manage the day to day operations of the facilities were unable to prevent and detect the illegal activities and dangers their members imposed on the rest of the community. This same argument should be applied to the ICH and EC housing so that these two facilities must also refrain from any social and “recruiting activities” (i.e. ICH’s e-mail earlier today asking for student interest in housing next year) until Columbia can fully investigate where problems arose in preventing these activities from occurring in ALL OF ITS HOUSING. Also, don’t forget Greek housing is Columbia housing–since these events occurred in a variety of its housing options, they should all face the same interim punishments and public critique that greek housing does
@Anonymous Yeah, but how do you expect them to put EC on probation? And with a frat house, they all know each other (IRC, too). With EC, there are hundreds of people living there, and there’s no way to assume that most of them know each other.
@Anonymous In that logic: If all of the fraternities are being punished for activity occurring in their houses, then those individuals living in the suite in EC should be punished in the same manner. There is no difference here.
@Hm? How can you punish a suite “in the same manner”? Suites are not activities/organizations, and they can’t be put on probation in the same manner as a frat.
@Anonymous Actually according to DNAinfo and other news source that posted a copy of the agenda of Klein’s frat’s meetings, that frat did know about his activities.
@Anonymous So that’s one of the fraternities, not all of them. It is unfair to group all of them under the thought that “Well Psi U knew and wrote it on their agenda which means ALL of the fraternities must’ve known.” Also, as this statement was added post-type, it could suggest they had just found out about it and we aren’t sure what their reaction may have been
The point of the “interim” response is that it is to put safety mechanisms in place while an OFFICIAL investigation take place–meaning the University has not decided whether the entire fraternity is implicated in this and what their role may or may not have been
Dean Schollenberger’s statement and decision unjustly puts blame on a select group associated with these events while letting the other communities–and the greater Columbia community for that matter– of the hook….. this is shameful
@the truth is that a reporter snuck into Psi U’s house and wrote those additional comments at the bottom of their meeting agenda before taking a picture and posting it online. No brother of Psi U wrote that, nor was it posted up in any public place in the house. Besides, no brother of Psi U actually calls Adam “Adam”, they call him Bobo, his brother name.
@Little Help “They call him Bobo, his brother name.”
Well isn’t that a cute wittle name!
Frats are so cool.
@? Which frat was the fourth one in?
@Greek central Although two of the students were unaffiliated (though I’m not sure if you should call ICH “unaffiliated”), they were all involved in the Greek scene. You can’t deny that the epicenter of this ring was clearly the frats. That said, obviously frat boys are probably not the only people on campus dealing drugs. But still, this bust took out a ring that was based in the fraternities, even though not everyone in the ring was technically a member of a frat.
@senior Can we put the ICH and EC on probation too?
@Yeah. Seriously. Why should the fraternities be punished for the actions of one or two of their members, simply because they share the same general residential space?
@asdf I think it’s more “simply” because they share the same sign written in their common room saying “don’t sell shit outside of the house.” Yeah, I think it’s probably to do with that simple something.
@Hey And I quote
“The Division of Student Affairs will initiate an internal review of the three fraternity chapters and the Intercultural House (ICH), where the alleged behavior also took place. We plan to work closely with student leaders, the fraternity and sorority community (including national organizations), and the ICH to assess the scope of the problem and what reforms may be necessary to address these issues. We envision the involvement of students, administrators, and other members of our campus community in these conversations. Terry Martinez, Dean of Community Development and Multicultural Affairs, will oversee this review.”
This will be some deep conversation shit here, trying to strike at the heart of the problem. At the very least ICH is involved.
@do you watch wrestling? that’s such a michael cole quote.
@do you go here? You obviously can’t put EC on probation. It’s just a place where people live, not an organization of any kind.
@How did you even get in here?? that’s the exact point…the greek HOUSES on suspension right now are places WHERE PEOPLE LIVE. There is no real proof right now that points to the ORGANIZATIONS participating in these activities and thus the only rational base for this suspension is them being punished on providing housing to these students and not preventing the activities from occurring. In that vein, ALL of the Columbia housing that provided housing for these students should be held to the same standard and interim punishments while an official investigation takes place.
Your ignorant comment proves the point even more that this statement released from the Dean paints an incorrect picture and assumption that the fraternities as organizations were involved, not just the housing their members lived in.
Please see below some of the more sensible comments about what a probation for EC might look like.
@EC Resident Not gunna lie, EC’s got a pretty good number of drug dealers too. With some bomb ass drugs.
@No There’s a difference between investigating a relatively small frat house and a huge residence like EC…
@dang someone posted the news article on wymb’s wall..what a jerk!
@LOL, I mean.... It sucks he has to find out through a news article!
@anonymous Idiots ruined what little greek life columbia has
@Anonymous good.
fuck Greek Life.
@WHY IS THIS SO INTERESTING?
I have so many goddamn papers to write.
@Alum I would def be checking bwog 24/7 if I were still a student…I don’t know why its so interesting either!!!
@a level headed cc student A bit long but bear with me:
Here is the reality of the situation. I consider myself, for all intents and purpose, a typical Columbia student. I have purchased drugs on multiple occasions from each and every one of the people arrested. I also have great relationships with all of those people. On top of my studies, I enjoy a good drug from time to time. I have used, and probably will continue to use, weed, adderall, LSD, MDMA, cocaine, tobacco, alcohol, DMT, and a tons of other drugs. I have been using most of these drugs consistently for over a year. I am an extremely happy person who works hard in school, has a job, and maintains an adequate social life. I am not addicted to anything except maybe nicotine, but I do enjoy drug use, and despite the fact that these 5 people have been removed from campus, I will certainly continue to do so (probably more so now that I am deeply unhappy that my friends are being imprisoned), especially because I know that the flow of drugs onto this campus did not, can not, and absolutely will not end.
Whether or not you use or purchase drugs, and whether or not you think it is acceptable to do, you have to accept the fact that it is going to happen, especially at a campus like this which demands so much of you both academically and socially. Drugs are prevalent EVERYWHERE, not just across campuses, but across this country as a whole. There is common misconception, furthered by sensationalist media and politicians like Ray Kelly looking for an excuse to cover up the incompetence of the modern NYPD, that drugs WILL lead to death, injury, or criminality. This is not correct; it is speculation, and anyone with a shred of education knows that it is an elementary error to take speculation as fact. I not only have been using all sorts of drugs recreationally for the last year, but I know TONS and TONS of people who do as well, many of them in this school, many of them elsewhere. Parents, I know it is hard to think of your child having easy access to illegal substances, but you should be aware that this is New York City in 2010: your child WILL try drugs, your child DOES have easy access to them (and there is nothing you can do about it), and you MUST trust your child to moderate his/her consumption, if he/she decides to consume at all. This is the culture of the youth as it is now, and it is not going to change anytime soon–trends show that drugs are becoming more acceptable in mainstream society, not less.
Now, the reason I will defend the sale of these drugs is not because I am friends with drug dealers, for I have defended drug dealing way before I actually started using drugs or befriending drug dealers. The reasoning for this is that drug use, especially on college campuses, is common and is not causally related to any demonstrable deterioration of the student body. Consider this: the only reason the 5 people arrested were in possession of such large quantities of drugs is because there was a market for them here on the Columbia campus. The vast majority of the customers were Columbia students (I can assure that because I know the ins and outs of drug dealing on this campus very well), and there were very few, probably less than I can count on both hands, that were not. What this tells me is that, while we may have removed 5 major drug sources from campus, we have NOT removed the hundreds (and I do means hundreds, and maybe dozens of hundreds) of students who still want their weed, their coke, their adderall, their acid, their ecstasy, their shrooms, their painkillers, etc. and they WILL get it (they are extremely cunning Columbia students after all). Personally speaking, I STILL have multiple sources for a variety of drugs and I don’t even have to leave campus to get them; I am confident that this true for most others here as well. So what has this bust accomplished, other than humiliating 5 people with all the potential in the world?
Having spent much time with a variety of college drug dealers, I can assure that having additional income to pay for necessary expenses is a major, if not the predominant factor, in their decision to start dealing. I know all 5 of these people, and the last words I would use to describe any of them is spoiled, greedy, ruthless, or unintelligent. These guys were some of the brightest minds I have ever come in contact with, and while their potential may now be spoiled, it is completely unfair to call them “idiots”, “scumbags”, or whatnot who “threw their Ivy League education away”. For most of these guys, dealing seemed necessary to sustain their education, and these guys were looking to make the money they needed to make to get their degrees–so that they would not have to deal anymore. What is even more sad is that with the stigma and notoriety attached to their names, illegal dealing may now be the only way for them to make an income in the future (for who will higher these “organized drug ring operators”?), when the fact of the matter is that, upon graduating, these guys would have had the opportunity to make money using their intelligence. Columbia demands $54,000 dollars from you, and though there is lots of financial aid, your gifts are decided based on your family income, not your personal income. And if you family decides not to, or find that they cannot, pay as much as is excepted of them by Columbia, the stress of obtaining an undergraduate degree while having to pay thousands of dollars off to the school can undoubtedly drive a student to dealing, especially when working for $7-10 an hour in between endless studying is simply too taxing and wearisome to be feasible. I say this because I have considered dealing drugs many a time for this very reason, and it is so realistic a possibility for any given student, even here on campus, that it should not be dismissed as implausible.
All the NYPD, Ray Kelly, Bridget Brennan, and this failure of a War on Drugs has accomplished is locking away a future statistician, a future biochemist, a future anthropologist, engineer, writer, psychologist. While they may “seem” to be detracting from society now, the contributions these men had the potential to make on our society in the future is much greater than any police officer, police commissioner, or shifty narcotics officer could ever hope to make, and now that potential is stifled, all in the name of protecting a group of people who neither asked for nor wanted such protection (the dealers’ customers). They did not put anyone who does not use or like drugs in any sort of danger, and though you may argue that they were furthering others’ addictions (in which case you need to educate yourself on the real effects of drugs and stop listening to what Mommy or Nancy Reagan is whispering into your ear), you would be hard pressed to find a single person who either spent time with these guys or purchased from these guys who is actually thankful for and supports the actions of the police. Sadly enough, the only people grateful for what has happened are the same people who are entirely unaffected by it.
Drugs or no drugs, these men have absolutely beautiful, warm, kind, and welcoming souls, something that I have struggled to find here at Columbia and throughout life in general. They treated everyone they knew with so much respect and amiability, and they made me feel welcome here in a school where few very people, including RAs and faculty, did not. They went out of their way to make sure that I enjoyed myself and my time, and I know for sure that they extend that same willingness to anyone, stranger or not, who is receptive of it. I know I only speak for myself, but these are the kinds of men whose characters actually remind me of the goodness of human beings (when the media, the comments I read all over the internet, and politicians truly make me lose hope), and it’s unfortunate that other people, whose perspectives of the world are shaped by misconceptions forced upon them by the biases of their parents, their peers, their politicians, and their media, will never truly understand how beautiful these guys really are.
If you think the treatment they got from the police and from the media is warranted, then you should take a good look at yourself and your formulations for how human beings should be treated. These 5 young men made the mistake of being too trusting and extending a helping hand to people who were only looking to ruin their lives. I personally believe that you should judge someone by the content of his character, and if this is so, then these 5 guys are amongst the most admirable people I have ever had the privilege of meeting, and I only pray that everybody gets a chance to have people like them positively influence their lives the way these guys have influenced mine.
@Anonymous Oh god. I hope you’re posting this from a public computer. Hint: IP addresses are public and subpoenable.
@anon lolz.
yay for dynamic ip addresses on the cu network!!!!
@its not that easy Columbia records your ip/mac every time you login using your uni.
@Anonymous I completely disagree with everything you just said.
Yes these students are clearly highly intelligent (after all, they got into Columbia and seem to have been doing fairly well academically), and had the potential to substantially contribute to society.
However, they CHOSE to deal drugs. No one forced them. It was a dumb choice, but it was a conscious decision, and they clearly chose to participate for an extended period of time. They understood that the stakes were high. They were making a lot of money, but any student at Columbia knows that they risked dire legal consequences.
They did not NEED to deal to pay tuition. As someone who has worked nearly 40 hours a week throughout college, its doable. Tough, but doable. If you want to be here, you need to find a way to make it work (legally). Scholarships, loans, and jobs cover tuition for all of their classmates, they were trying to take a shortcut. If they didn’t want to pay the steep tuition, they could have gone to a state school and paid $15,000 a year, a far more manageable amount. They wanted the Columbia education, which comes with a Columbia price tag. If they didn’t want to find a way to pay it, they shouldn’t be here.
Finally (and I know I’m going to get flamed for this one)- of course they were all nice to you- you were their customer! How do you keep business up? Keep the customer happy? Good grief.
I find it pathetic that five drug dealers are some of the most admirable people you have ever met, and find it ridiculous that you put these guys on a pedestal.
@Finally. Some sensible comments in this shit-storm. People are really over-romanticizing the potential of these kids and not the results of their actions.
If they could’ve done anything, then the choice to have done this is PATHETIC.
@Bull fucking shit are you working 40 hours a week and are still keeping up with your schoolwork. I work ten hours a week and its killing me.
What joke classes are you taking to pull that shit off.
@grad student Shut the fuck up. I graduated in 2010 with a B.S. in BME and worked part-time evenings with a private tutoring jobs, easily 30+ hrs/week. I graduated with 153 credits. Learn to be efficient.
@lol thats an awful way to spend your life
@Anonymous I am the first poster you called BS on. It is actually quite possible- probably ranges from 30-40 hours depending on the week/time in the semester.
20-25 hours a week at an off-campus job + 15hr/week on campus job = 35-40 hours in a typical week.
And yes, I have friends, and still participate in activities.
It takes time management and dedication, but you do what you need to do. I wake up at 6:30 most days to study, and spend a couple of hours during the day at my on campus job. I work off campus a couple of nights a week, and a full day on the weekend. This still leaves me Friday night and a full weekend day to study/hang out with friends, and I use my time productively during the week to get my work done. I want to be here so I make it work.
@NO If you are going to use these substances more because your friends are imprisoned, you are exhibiting clear signs of addiction, possible depression, and poor coping skills. I am not debating your choice to use, but your inability to cope with challenges without numbing yourself. You are not a level-headed cc kid who is a “typical” Columbia student. I truly hope you seek out some assistance for your problems rather than falling deeper into your addiction.
@a level headed cc student Wrong! They were my friends before they were my dealers, in fact, they were my friends before they became dealers. Once again, you guys do not know what you are talking about. This is the essential problem with all of you guys who think you know the right answer to everything. I was ACTUALLY friends with these people. I know why they dealed. You were not friends with them. You don’t know their motives. You are uninformed and spread you misinformation and the uneducated masses simply side with you.
Interesting applicable quote: “Two people are miseducated, but because their miseducations agree, they mistake it for education.”
Also, I also haven’t used anything except cigarettes since this happened, so don’t say anything about my addiction, depression, or poor coping mechanisms. I said I would be more inclined to use drugs after this, but I didn’t say that I AM using more drugs.
And I’ve met a good number of people around campus. In fact, I’ve probably met the people who responded to the original post, and their friends. I’ve met tons of people. I know more people on this campus then you probably have the nuts to introduce yourself to over the course of your lifetime. I know tons of people who don’t deal and don’t use drugs. But that does not make them good people. It doesn’t make them admirable. You’ve got you moral fucking highhorse and because you abstain from this and that, you are better? No. I’ve met you, and people like you, and quite honestly, my drug dealing friends simply have better personalities then most people here. They aren’t boring carbon copies of each other, people who fake aspects of themselves just to get in with other fake people (like most of the “socially elite” here) and they actually gave two shits about their friends, which most people around here simply do not.
So yeah, my friends were drug dealers. They were awesome. I miss them and I wish more people were like them. Suck on that.
@Anonymous ” I have been using most of these drugs consistently for over a year.”
“Also, I also haven’t used anything except cigarettes since this happened”
You’re REALLY gonna miss that Adderall during finals, huh? Oh, and good luck with ending your cocaine addiction, withdrawal symptoms can last for months.
@a level headed cc student Meh, I don’t do cocaine enough to be addicted to it, I actually haven’t even looked at the substance in about 3-4 weeks. You have to moderate your consumption to make sure you don’t fall into addiction.
As for the adderall, I’m NOT going to be missing it during finals because I have access to as much of it as I goddamn well please, which is exactly the point I was making earlier! I don’t have to “miss” it, no one is going to have to “miss” it, because this got rid of the dealers, not the drugs themselves. Those, my friends, are still quite easily attainable.
@actually this is pharmacologically incorrect. cocaine has fewer withdrawal symptoms than even marijuana. stop making broad statements when you don’t even know what you’re talking about
@ok The fact that I don’t snort coke does NOT make me an Ivy League carbon-copy. You should probably get to know people before you say things like that about them.
@a level headed cc student And once again, you read what you want to read instead of understanding what I am actually saying. I did not say you need to do drugs to be cool and fun. I know quite a few people who don’t even drink, and I fucking love them because they are amazing and have genuine hearts and personalities. Likewise, there are people who do use drugs who suck because they are fake and fickle and don’t treat people well. The point I’m trying to make is that “good people” and “drug use” are not mutually exclusive, and neither are their opposites. It just so happens that the drug dealers that I know are awesome, but not because they deal drugs, but in spite of it.
@ok “I’ve met you, and people like you, and quite honestly, my drug dealing friends simply have better personalities then most people here.”
Ummm pretty sure that’s how it read. If that’s not what you meant, maybe you shouldn’t have said it.
@a level headed cc student All you did was quote me and show that I did not say what you interpreted me as saying. So I will reiterate one last time, if you don’t get it, then you never will: My drug dealing friends simply have better personalities than most of the people here. That’s not to say that they are better friends because of anything related to drugs; au contraire, if they weren’t dealing drugs, their personalities alone would STILL make them infinitely more worthwhile people to spend time with than most people here.
Misinterpret that as you wish.
@So... I think there’s an interesting applicable quote here too.
“Cool story bro.”
@You break the law, you go to jail.
End of story.
@yup all of our laws are perfectly just, so logically anyone that breaks them is a piece of shit.
@Anonymous that’s not what this person even wrote jackass.
they never claimed the law was just and that people who break laws are pieces of shit.
@Anonymous right on, b. and fuck it, drug users have better tastes in music, clothes, movies, culture…
@Ipad The drug trade, especially cocaine, kills. It is bloody. They deserve jail time.
@oh shut up I’ve never taken illegal drugs and I even I recognize the human (and particularly Columbian) impulse to protest as a means of coping. He’s not taking drugs because he can’t handle being sober; he’s doing it as a way to say “fuck you” to the drug warriors who locked up his friends. It’s no different than the people who took down Paypal because they were upset about Wikileaks. They’re not disturbed, just very angry!
@He is coping by explaining his views and defending his friends in the best way he knows how. He clearly put a lot of time into his arguments. Even if you disagree with him, acknowledge that he is coping constructively.
@Anonymous “Parents, I know it is hard to think of your child having easy access to illegal substances, but you should be aware that this is New York City in 2010: your child WILL try drugs, your child DOES have easy access to them (and there is nothing you can do about it), and you MUST trust your child to moderate his/her consumption, if he/she decides to consume at all.”
to assume that all students WILL try drugs is absolutely ridiculous. thanks for making a gross generalization about the entire student body.
@What I interpreted your screed to be I am a privledged douche who takes drugs to feel better about myself. I don’t have a drug problem, I’m just self-medicating!
Everybody does drugs, and I mean EVERYBODY. Therefore, all drugs should be legal. Kids should take drugs every day, so they’ll turn out just like me! Cause I’m a normal person! I’m not really a freak who’s desparatvely trying to fill an empty void in his soul.
Sure, I bought drugs from those guys who got arrested. In fact, I’m shitting my pants right now cause they might roll over on me and send me to Rikers. I was one of many who wanted drugs. The free market is the most efficient and most godly of all social constructs, and if that free market demands all drugs all the time, why should government interfere?
My drug dealers are fine upstanding citizens who are too smart for the largely uneducated masses. Sure, they had trouble trying to maintain their lifestyle while attending an elite university, which is their birthright to attend. Take time off? Go to a “lesser” school? Shudder at the thought. We’re not like the rest of you schlubs who color within the lines and cast off dreams for the sake of dealing with reality. We’ll take shortcuts!
You know what really sucks about this whole thing? That my friends got caught. They would’ve gotten away with it if it weren’t for those meddling kids. You snitches. I hope you die in a fire. How dare you deprive us of life, liberty, and happiness?
I justify taking these shortcuts because The Man is keeping us down. And Mom and Dad. Yeah, Mom can go suck a dick and Dad can go fuck his sister. No way I can apply for student loans. No way I can apply for scholarships. No way I can, gasp, go to Columbia, but instead join Peace Corps or the Army or get a job!
So Fuck the NYPD for arresting my friends. I mean, they only broke stupid laws. They don’t deserve any jail time at all, because my friends are smart! Ethics has nothing to do with it! Endangering their friends has nothing to do with it! Personal responsiblity has nothing to do with it! They’re S-M-R-T smart! And all you calling for their heads are all drug users too.
Remember, everybody’s a special snowflake, especially these guys, and they deserve our pity. Their only crime was loving too much.
@Dude (or chick), I say this in the most respectful way possible: you need some help!! “I have used, and probably will continue to use, weed, adderall, LSD, MDMA, cocaine, tobacco, alcohol, DMT, and a tons of other drugs” I’m not sure the average cc student can say this!
“Drugs or no drugs, these men have absolutely beautiful, warm, kind, and welcoming souls” I don’t doubt that, but I’m pretty sure there’s someone who says that about every rapist/murderer/thief out there. So forgive me if your word is not strong enough to make me change my mind about the stupidity of their actions.
Lastly, whether or not drug sale and use should be legalized, the fact is it IS illegal. You break the law, you’ll suffer the consequences. So inasmuch as it’s sad that their futures are in jeopardy and all that, they really did have it coming to them
@Jim Crow THE LAW IS THE LAW DON’T YOU FORGET IT
@a level headed cc student The average CC student probably hasn’t done as many drugs as I have, but I’m just not afraid to try most drugs. LSD and DMT are insane! Coke is pretty fun if you are an energetic kind of person. MDMA made me happy and content for the first time in a long time, happiness that I still feel whether I am on the drug or not. Alcohol gets the job done but it makes people act really stupid and its a lot worse for you than LSD, DMT, or MDMA can ever be; not my favorite drug in the world. Adderall will make you more productive than you have ever been in your life. And cigs are cigs. Nothing really to talk about there.
I recognize that I’ve done more drugs than most, but considering how well I am doing in school, how healthy I feel, and how happy I am with the amazing people I spend time with, I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s a bad thing. If drugs are not for you, that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean they are not awesome.
@NO “MDMA made me happy and content for the first time in a long time”
Thank you for making my point that you are struggling with addiction, depression, and poor coping skills and are in serious need of some help. You don’t have to get defensive or angry at this assessment – just get some help. Please.
@Or maybe MDMA is the “serious help” cc student needs
http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v11/n9/abs/nrn2884.html
@Yeah, you need help. You’re obviously under the influence of something (probably LSD) if you can justify your behavior as “level-headed.”
@You're not alone. Some of my most profound learning experiences were had under LSD. And I am a healthy SEAS major with a 3.9 GPA. I am involved in multiple extracurricular activities, and I’d like to think that most of my friends consider me to be a level-headed person.
@Anonymous Aaaand everyone above just got lawyer’d.
@yay tl;dr
@Faux-prof Your essay was long but I trudged through it all. A for effort I must say.
However there were some points I disagreed with.
You took an idealistic and biased standpoint. Consider citing sources other than yourself. I also don’t think you realize that a change in the state, hell, nationwide views and policy on crime and drugs are going to change anytime soon.
2. Consider moving to Amsterdam.
3. They chose to deal. They done goof’d.
4. I don’t think they’re scumbags and I know the media sensationalizes. The consequences are pretty screwed up but you can’t change ’em so you best be wary.
@Anonymous i’m sorry, but statistically you are not an average student if you use those drugs.
Only slightly over half of Columbia students drink.
@a level headed cc student My apologies: when I said that I am typical student, I was trying to say that I am just your run-of-the-mill CC student, you know? I could be living down the hall, or eating across from you at the cafeteria, etc. There is nothing special about me. I was not trying to say that the average CC student uses the amount or variety of drugs that I do. Sorry for the miscommunication there.
@Idiotic! Complete drivel.
You’re a typical Columbia student? MDMA, cocaine, LSD, marijuana? Most of us aren’t Tommy Chong, bro.
@Spoken like a real druggie… Addicts always sing the praises of their dealers, because the dealers give the addicts what they want – the pleasure of the drug and the faux morality that justifies it. It looks like this one has inhaled both.
@Ugh. You’re worldview is so fucked, homes. Could have something to do with the fact that you’re a category five burn-out.
Drugs are NOT everywhere. They’re only where ever drugs users are. Just because you’re in network, so to speak, doesn’t mean it’s ubiquitous.
@Anonymous Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!! I have been waiting for someone to say all this. I wish I knew who you were. =(
@a level headed cc student The fact that what I am saying, which in reality isn’t that disagreeable of an argument, and certainly isn’t very assuming, seems incorrect to many of you simply proves my point that you have had your perspective on these issues handed to you, instead of educating yourself on it. Read about drugs, their long and short term effects, the drug market, etc. and then come to a conclusion. Personally, the amount of lives that are lost because of how the drug market operates is undoubtedly detestable, but the solution to that is not, and never has been, arresting small time distributors. Experts on the politics and economics of the drug war will tell you that legalizing drugs would inject $77 billion into the US economy, $44 billion of which would come from saving money from drug law enforcement. Lest you forget, the NYPD spent at $11ooo of state, city, and taxpayer money just to bust 5 college students, and that’s not including the thousands they may have spent on all sorts of surveillance equipment and what not. Was it worth it? Especially considering that it has solved absolutely nothing in terms of drug use on this campus, in this city, or in this country as a whole? If you think it was worth it, well then I hope you fund all these useless operations with your own money so that the NYPD can stop irresponsibly spending ours.
Link to statistics source: http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2008/12/03/einstein-insanity-and-the-war-on-drugs/
Just in case you doubt the veracity of my statement.
@So You cite statistics, but do you understand how the numbers are reached? These numbers are often, if not always, an estimate of illegal drug purchases. So yes, legalization will inject a certain amount of money from taxes, that is undeniable, but think about the portion of money coming from actual hard addicts, and not casual drug users like you.
But…what about the effects of legalized drugs on worker/economic productivity and future development? Obviously that is a cost much harder to quantify. Also, I seriously doubt if you, or anyone, continued your casual drug habits that you would be more productive than a sober individual over time, assuming equal intellect and work ethic now.
@Anonymous They should have stuck to selling weed if they just wanted the money. Or do some of the judgmental assholes on bwog think weed is somehow immoral and evil? Some of us read books for fun, some of us play sports, we (pretty much) all work hard, lots of us smoke weed and lots of us don’t. Cool story. Peace and love.
@anon i had to copy and paste that into word and turn it black so it wouldn’t hurt my eyes
@anonymous What would have happened if Columbia handled this in house? Would they have reported this to NYPD? Or would they have just taken disciplinary action?
@SUSPENDED GET ON SPECTRUM. The three frats are now under interim suspensions!! http://spectrum.columbiaspectator.com/spectrum/aepi-pike-psiu-receive-interim-suspensions
@wow Do you yall think this will end up being permanent or they’re just doing it until the buzz dies down? I mean, chances are ALL of the members didn’t know about it/weren’t involved in it. Even if they DID know about it, are they liable/can they be held responsible for not doing anything and just knowing that it was happening (from a legal standpoint, I would imagine the university could take some form of disciplinary action)?
@Anonymous http://s3.amazonaws.com/sfb111/story_xlimage_2010_12_R6214_COLUMBIA_DRUG_BUST_12072010.jpg
pretty clear that basically everyone at Psi U knew what was going on…
I don’t see how they wouldn’t get shut down.
@soooooo So this paper is dated 12/5….do you think something happened earlier in the week to lead someone to write “Adam should have followed this rule”? It seems like this is implying he got in trouble for “doing stupid things in the house” prior to getting busted yesterday.
@but but everything referencing adam’s being arrested is handwritten – from what i gathered the minutes were posted in the house and after he was arrested someone scribbled some smartass comments
@Are they really that dumb? Wouldn’t they assume that the house/his room would be searched?
For kids that are supposed to be smart, Columbians can be really dumb sometimes.
@Anonymous I would think they would’ve searched the house/his room right after they arrested him no? and taken the agenda then?
otherwise, what kind of assholes was he living with? who would write that on there right after their “brother” had been arrested?
@Antoine Dodson you are really dumbb you are soooo dumbbbbb!
@Alum holy crap I didn’t know dues were that expensive…
@Both hand written notes were written AFTER the fact—either by a Psi U person or more likely one of the asshole reporters who snuck into the house since the police left the door open and looked for a story, found the sheet, and thought they could forge something to make the entire frat look bad.
@Anonymous On Psi U: didn’t the paper on the wall have something like “if you need a fix email Adam” Considering these appeared to be minutes from a meeting I found it highly improbable that there were people in the frat who had no idea of the drug-dealing activities. Could be wrong though
@Anonymous It said “if you need *SOMETHING* fixed,” as in a broken doorknob or something. Get some glasses.
@next time, read before posting the link is literally RIGHT above you.
“House Man: If something needs fixing, email Adam”
@Anonymous My bad, saw the wrong thing!
@Anonymous http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2010/12/08/nr.ivy.league.bust.cnn?hpt=T2
@LOL she said nut! and sweat heart!
@I believe she said knut!
@Alum wow has anyone seen the photos on spec of the stuff found in their rooms?
@BWOG please cover the Adam Klein sentencing/ court appreance tomorrow if it occurs as scheduled!!!
@Eliza We’ll post everything we know about Klein’s official court date and any new information on Klein or any of the other four defendants. We’ve got you!
@of course not.. these kids are done at Columbia.
@I would be surprised If Columbia lets them back. Imagine they’ll want to avoid having to expel them but no doubt they don’t want any of the five to come back.
@... they’ll be allowed back to take their finals on the condition that they’re accompanied by a bond company stooge. and if they hope to stand a chance at trial, they better not let their stooge get kidnapped by rival frats.
@Anonymous Wouldn’t it actually be a good idea to let them back in school. I’m just saying that if I were to actually apply any of the knowledge i’ve learned at Columbia it would be that education keeps people out of the drug world. Honestly, these kids probably wouldn’t have continued to sell drugs outside of college and without a degree it really hinders any chance of them getting a decent job (yeah I know the nationwide media attention doesn’t help either but still).
@Ghost of William F Buckley Jr I completely agree.
@bail v bond Basically you get bail money back, but bond money is a wash- but its less then it seems on its face.
Say your bail is set at $10,000. If you pay the $10,000, and then show up at your hearing, the money is returned.
Since a lot of people can’t pay their bail money out of pocket, the bond system enables them to get out of jail until trial (if you go down to the Manhattan courthouse, there are a lot of bail bond companies in the surrounding area). The bond companies have good credit/a relationship with the courts, and will basically vouch for you/pay your bail (in the form of a bond), for a fee. Example: if the bond is $10,000, you would pay the bond company $2,000 (or whatever they charge) instead of the full amount. They pay the court the full $10,000 (which they get back when you show up for your hearing), you never get back the $2000 you paid the bond company because that is how they make their profit. If you don’t show up for your hearing, a warrant is issued for your arrest (in both a bail and a bond situation). If you paid through a bond company, they will likely hire a bounty hunter so that they can ensure they get their money back.
This is my basic understanding of the difference, if anyone can clarify further/correct me if I’m wrong, please jump in!
@alumnus Looks right, except the money is returned at the conclusion of the case, not just the next hearing.
The DNAinfo article says Klein’s attorney hadn’t spoken yet to his client, which suggests that his 12/9 court date is for a reason other than a guilty plea. If it’s not a guilty plea, could be the ADA downgrading or even dismissing the charges, or some other administrative reason. Guilty plea is still the likeliest reason, but the door’s open.
@Eliza Dude you’re the most helpful Bwog commenter possibly ever. Can you email me at eliza@bwog.com? It can be anonymous/whatever.
@fellow alum Do you really think it could be a full dismissal of charges? I could see them possibly downgrading them, but it sounds like they have some pretty serious evidence against these guys.
Also, does anyone know why a couple of them were quoted as saying something to the effect of “I did it to pay my tuition”, and then were able to plead not guilty? It seems like this is an outright admission that they did it and its kind of counterintuitive that they would plead not guilty after explaining their motives for doing it.
Wow. I have no clue why I’m so interested in this.
@Anonymous I was surprised that as students who attend a privileged university, they would make any statement to the police like this after getting arrested. Anyone who studied the constitution or know anything about civil rights know that the one of the first things you do when getting arrested is say nothing but ask for your lawyer. Everything else, even if they don’t read you your Miranda rights, can and WILL be used against you in a court of law, or in this case, the court of public perception.
@not really That probably won’t hold up in court and the prosecution won’t bother with it. Everyone knows these kids are guilty, but the prosecution obviously has a plea deal set up for all of them.
@alumnus Based on the stuff we’ve seen so far, do I believe the charges will be dismissed this early? No. My guesses would be guilty plea, defendant waiving discovery and going to trial, or the state downgrading the charges (move to misdemeanor track). I read somewhere the defendants were already indicted, though, so I doubt the ADA would be reducing the charges this soon. Or the court date might have been moved up for some other procedural reason that requires a judge’s decision.
Burden is on the state to prove defendant’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. An admission of guilt by the defendant during the investigation is strong evidence, but it doesn’t remove a defendant’s right to trial. The statement can be challenged as admissible evidence or the statement can be disputed as to whether it proves the elements of some or all of the charges. Of course, a defendant, with the advice of counsel if not waived, may decide he’s better off pleading guilty to a lesser sentence than risk a harsher sentence at trial.
@shutup CLS law student. if they said “i did it to pay for tuition”, then they are obviously fucked every which way. use your common sense.
@alumnus NYC DOC no longer has a next court date listed for Adam Klein. NYC DOC may update later with a new date; Spec reported 1/11 court date.
@Alum wow, I had no idea you got your money back if you posted bail. thank you for explaining this.
@anytime. happy to help.
@Yeah, and I think sometimes, if you’re found guilty, you don’t get the money back. They use it to pay court fees.
@The Question Remains Will they show their faces during finals? Wymbs does want to go to graduate school.
@???? Are they officially still enrolled? My guess would be they have the option of showing up for finals if they’re that brazen.
I would assume that even in a situation as dramatic as this there is some sort of procedure for expulsion/placing them on leave?
@Alum in all fairness, they’re innocent until proven guilty (even though its pretty obvious)
@Stephan Vincenzo Hey guys, a little help here?
@Little Help Can someone please explain the concept of “bail” or “bond” in basic terms?
Is the $35,000 posted meaning that they get the money back when they appear back in court, or is the $35,000 just cash to keep them out of the clink?
Or neither?
Thanks!
@lmgtfy http://lmgtfy.com/?q=difference+between+bail+and+bond
@middle class Such spoiled rich brats.
@also middle class You ever spend time in a NY correctional facility? You think your parents wouldn’t do whatever possible to get you out? I don’t know if these kids are rich or not, but the fact that they’re released on bail doesn’t exactly make them “spoiled” “rich” or “brats”.
@my parents do not have that type of liquid cash to just bail me out, theyd make me sit my ass in jail and think about what i did. that is how you teach discipline not come crying with a blank check hugging your MDMA dealer son, Wymbs will likely still be dealing next semester after this shit
@Anonymous Well then, you/your parents have a fucked up view of parenting. There are some mistakes you let your kids make to “learn discipline” and understand consequences– e.g. get into a fight, cheat on a test. Then there are life-changing mistakes for which, as a parent, you’d be irresponsible to sit back and do nothing. Any decent parent with a child in this serious a situation would give everything they have to keep them out of jail and hire the best attorney they can afford, and worry about discipline later. It doesn’t make them indulgent.
@Anonymous I’m sure as hell make my kid sit in a correctional facility… taking them home certainly wouldn’t teach them a lesson. By making them sit in the correctional facility they’d get to see how much they’d really fucked up, maybe it would teach them a lesson like don’t deal drugs or you’ll end up in jail.
@This. I’d take my kid home so I could beat the living shit outta him, especially if I just wasted 100k of tuition on his ass so he could have some extra spending money from selling drugs.
@Anonymous Well, no doubt… but that doesn’t make them rich. I think one of the families has money… but he’s the least involved? Also: I heard that Klein’s parents were unemployed or recently laid off or something… so you know, I don’t know about the “rich kid” comment.
“Saddled in debt kid” perhaps would be more accurate?
Oh and p.s. trust me… these kids are being punished enough. If, between the 5 of them, they sold $11,000 of drugs… what is that? 2k a person? I bet some offended worse than others… which means one or two of these kids is being put on national TV over the equivalent of $1-2k. And let me tell you, that’s not unusual among the THOUSANDS of drug busts daily… I’ve heard of bigger busts at Hamilton for a SINGLE person, which didn’t even make TV!!!
If these kids were really the rich brat type (I knew a few at CC) they wouldn’t be dealing, period.
@Alum it’s wrong that this has more dislikes than likes
@nah man in the real world, someone needs to get bailed out a jail, you bet i’d be there.
@Anonymous Oh trust me, if my parents ever found out I was doing something along these lines, the punishment I’d get from my mom would be much worse than anything in jail or prison.
Much, much worse.
Don’t mess with an angry mom.
@isnt it funny how the only kids left in jail are the black kid and the hispanic one… and we call it criminal JUSTICE, yeah right. shows how corrupt our society is.
@Anonymous Cocaine guy is still in jail.
@michael scott yes, we don’t need another black man in jail
@Anonymous …..and the jew one
@Anonymous Well I guess on top of being smart enough not to deal drugs, you should be smart enough to deal drugs if you know your parents don’t have $35,000 to bail your ass when your arrested!! Also if the bias you’re talking of actually exists which I highly doubt (and because they’ll be so many racists willing to jump on this I’ll add that I’m speaking as a black person) then you should be smart enough to know that you shouldn’t deal drugs if the system is harsher towards you because of your race!
@middle class $35,000 is the equivalent of my parent’s annual income. Only the rich and spoiled can afford the luxury of blowing this kind of money. If it were me, I would rather take the time in jail than have my family pay for my stupidity.
@Anon Well they DO get the money back. Not that it’s easy/pssoble to get that together quickly but it is easier than if it was just down the drain.
@Anonymous Posted this on other threads, but if they have the cash, why not use it for that purpose?
It’s coming back and it’s a good practical purpose (everybody wants to make bail).
This isn’t a case of spoiling the kids (adults, but many adults of all classes are dependent on parents). It’s just a good use of money
@Stop Blaming people for being rich. Seriously. It really makes you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder. If you have enough money to bail your 20 year old son out of jail, I’m sure you would too. It’s true that not everyone has the same oppurtunities but you can’t fault this kids parents for bailing him out of JAIL if they have the means to do so.
@Anonymous We’re not blaming people for being rich, we’re blaming the parents for not punishing their children.
@... I don’t think its up to you to decide or judge how a parent should punish their children.
@Anonymous For all you know the parents are punishing their children.
They just don’t want to leave that punishment up to the NY penal system.
Seems like a wise decision.
@anonymous Stop telling people to not take economic class into account into all of this. Seriously. It really makes you sound like you don’t know anything about how economic class works in our society.
Oh, wait…. you probably don’t.
No one is “blaming” them for being rich, they’re simply pointing out that people who have money get the best deal out of everything.
@mike wymbs sorry my parents are smarter and worked harder than yours
@Anonymous SHUT THE FUCK UP.
@Psych If they were smarter they wouldn’t have raised a kid of dealt drugs
@cool I’m going to seem cool because I’m responding harshly to a troll that’s very good at baiting me!
@Uninvolved I’m uninvolved in the whole situation but am going to pretend like I am and continue to torment the fuck out of these kids who are getting it from all angles brandishing my words anonymously like a fucking coward because I feel insecure about my own well being.
By the way, shut the fuck up and leave them alone. None of you can possibly imagine what they are going through. Whether they deserve it or not, they are still human beings, not animals.
I swear to God, the only thing this whole mess has done is destroy my faith in the humanity of 90% of this school.
Come on trolls, get at me, clearly you have something important to say from you’re superior experience. But if you do, at least attach your name to it. Own up to your shitty lack of human compassion.
-Adam May
@Anonymous tl;dr
@cc 13 you are so right. up until a few days ago, those guys were our classmates and a part of our community-and they still are. it’s disgusting how many people are content to hurl insults at people who are obviously already in trouble. if people think what they did was wrong, then leave it to the court to give out punishment-what entitles you to judge? have some human sympathy…i’d bet good money none of you assholes can imagine how terrifying this must be for those poor guys, they are being punished enough already without this pathetic display.
adam…i know you and wymbs lived together. if you can get in touch with him, please let him know how many people support him and are hoping for the best. and i hope you take care of yourself as well, i know this can’t be easy for anyone close to these guys. so sorry.
@Psych While I do agree with your statement, it upsets me to see how just because the community knew him and were friends with him, automatically means he will be exempt from harsh criticism. If anything, this community should stand upon principles and standards and uphold those values onto everybody admitted into the school. So it doesn’t make sense to feel sympathy for someone who has done wrong, these kids put themselves in that situation, brought Columbia University’s reputation and its other students into this whole mess. If you make a mistake, you have to pay for it.
@cc 13 i see what you’re saying, and i’m not saying that we should ignore the fact they were doing something illegal, and i’m not saying they should even expect much sympathy from the wider community…i just don’t understand the vitriol. even if you think what they did was wrong, some of the things people are saying are really awful and i think, unnecessary.
@duh. Part of our community? Well, let me go into Harlem and hug my local drug kingpin. Just because you were friends w/ the C5 doesn’t diffuse the fact that they were knowingly committing a crime.
@cc 13 oh geez, get a grip. these kids are far from king pins. they made a mistake, they are obviously going to pay dearly, i just don’t see why any one of us deserves to crucify them.
@Anonymous I don’t know what easy going parents you have, but if got busted for SELLING drugs while I was suppose to be studying–all the while spending 50k of my parents money–the last place I want to be is near my father. I would rather be in jail than at home getting that ass whooping.
Not even out of fear. I wouldn’t be able to look my mother in the face knowing I let her down like that. I would want to be as far away as I could. Jail sounds like a relief than having to deal with my family.
If I was the father of one of those kids. I would get my kid a good lawyer, and tell my kid that that was the last thing he could ever expect from me until he proves himself worthy of my attention.
He could come back crying for forgiveness, and I would probably listen and forgive him. But I wouldn’t let him forget how much he fucked up for a long time.
@why would you get him a lawyer and bail him out? he clearly has unproven that he does not deserve it.
@Anonymous the saddest news of all time