Well, apparently you all are too busy studying to participate in a photo contest about being too busy studying. Sumaiya Ahmed did get one good shot of Butler craziness.
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Bwog Staff on
May 07, 2007 
88 Comments
Well, apparently you all are too busy studying to participate in a photo contest about being too busy studying. Sumaiya Ahmed did get one good shot of Butler craziness.
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88 Comments
@I'd say I’d say that gangly nerd about covers every category, except for GS which would be the drooling retard living in a home.
@zal I would think a big difference between CC and GS is the Core Curriculum for starters.
I don’t have any problem accepting GS. I was using it as an example of comparison with Barnard as schools that are not traditional undergraduate schools (Barnard due to its odd relationship with the university, GS due to the type of student it is geared to).
I find that the experiences and skills of Barnard and GS contribute greatly to the Columbia community. It bothers me when people talk down about Barnard because the experience for all people at CU is greatly enhanced by the students and resources of Barnard.
I’m not going to debate this on here anymore…if there is something that I’m missing that I should respond to, feel free to email me.
@well CC vs. SEAS. different curriculum requirements.
I see what you’re getting it. Ultimately we’re one big dysfunctional family. The bitter older child, the gangly nerd, the black sheep cousin no one talks about, and the second cousin you’re in a quasi incestual relationship with…
@typical columbian the blowjobs are a barnard experience that i would sorely miss.
@REGARDING barnard’s standing: let’s get this straight people.
1) Barnard college is NOT part of Columbia University. It is legally, administratively, financially, real estatedly separate from the University. barnard has a legally negotiated affiliation with the University, but runs on its own. its own administration, its own trustees, its own campus and buildings (owned by itself, not columbia) etc. etc. it pays columbia for access to power, telephone, heat, the library, etc.
2) Barnard students technically do not attend Columbia University. Check the OFFICIAL statistics (http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/students.html) Barnard is not listed.
However, as part of the agreement between the two schools (made during the financial crunch of the 70’s) there’s near full open cross-registration between the schools.
Also, even though Barnard is an independent institution, as part of the agreement, Columbia basically gets oversight over Barnard’s tenuring process and has the final say on whether faculty get hired. Cause for much resentment across the street, where priorities differ (teaching ability vs. research output).
3) Barnard students ARE Columbia Graduates. This is where they get you by the balls, and then try to retroactively apply the standing to their 4 years. As part of the agreement, the Trustees of Columbia University (the degree granting body) grants graduates of Barnard College degrees. There’s no contest over this. But if we’re going stick with technicalities, this means Barnard students are Columbia graduates, but without EVER having technically attended.
So there’s the paradox boys and girls. You never technically were a student at Columbia, but you’ll graduate from it. barnard girls could care less about this discrepancy (best of both worlds?) Columbia students are left whining, and looking incredibly insecure.
@Another thing http://www.columbia.edu/
Has links to: CC, SEAS, GS, ven the Med School
http://barnard.edu/
Says it’s part of CU
From: http://www.columbia.edu/academic_programs/index.html
Undergraduate education at Columbia is offered through Columbia College, the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science, and the School of General Studies. Undergraduate programs are offered by two affiliated institutions, Barnard College and Jewish Theological Seminary.
While Barnard is of course more prominent than the Seminary, the comparison kind of implies Barnard is not “a part of CU” the same as SEAS/CC are.
Also from the same page, links to:
Teachers College (Affiliate)
Union Theological Seminary (Affiliate)
The best possible argument that BC is not actually a part of CU was mentioned earlier, that no CU student would say they went to Barnard, but plenty of Barnard girls say they go to CU. Says a lot about relative academic reputation.
@zal How is that a relevant comparison? A CU student who doesn’t go to Barnard can’t claim they go to Barnard, just like Barnard students can’t claim they go to Columbia College.
Does the fact that a GS student goes to CU make GS’s reputation equivalent to Columbia College’s reuputation?
@nice try Columbia != only Columbia College.
And yes, it does regarding GS: those students are getting the same instruction you are, in the same classes you are, and getting the same degree you are. and some of them probably have work experience. guess who’s getting a job when both of you go to the same interview with similar academic records?
@zal as do Barnard students, receiving the same instruction, taking the same classes, getting the CU degree…I don’t mean to talk down GS, although I do believe the “reputation” of CC is higher than that of GS [which doesn’t necessarily mean anything tangible].
#81, I would defer to your explanation of the Columbia/Barnard relationship in place of what I said earlier.
@difference GS is actually part of Columbia. As I explained earlier, Barnard sorta-kinda isn’t really.
GS doesn’t “have” a reputation at all. Neither does “columbia college” when it really comes down to it. and why should it? it’s not about what you put into the machine, it’s what comes out. what gives a CC student any edge over a GS student? he did better in HS? that’s out the window, you’re being judged on your college record now, and you’re both being measured by exactly the same metric (for the most part, and far moreso than with barnard).
I believe that CC/SEAS people have a hard time accepting GS when they get to Columbia because you hear nothing about it during the traditional college application process. It comes across as a dirty secret back door of sorts, thanks to Columbia’s near-complete segregation of GS from CC/SEAS (whereas CC/SEAS are jointly ruled over by Chris Colombo and Division of Student Affairs, GS is administered entirely on its own.)
Blame Columbia for not explaining it clearly, don’t blame GS students. Though there’s the whole issue of GS refusing to disclose the statistics of its admitted students…
@Really? Again?
@interesting i could have sworn that the bwog article was about the people who live in the library, not about barnard’s legitimacy to exist
@i think columbia needs its own version of godwin’s law.
as an bwog discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Barnard approaches one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
@naw, more general than that: the longer a bwog discussion grows, the more people feel the need to bitch about something.
Actually, the more time people spend at Columbia, the more some of them feel the need to bitch about something.
@yup “The only motivation for Barnard students to say they go to Columbia is the exact same snobby desire for recognition as the Columbia students who resent them for making that claim.”
yup. so why don’t they start saying they go to barnard without having be pushed into it? i’m not saying they all do it, but the scenario of the “oh i go to columbia” barnard girl happens quite often. be proud of your school if you’re so happy to go there. it’s not a bad school so what’s the problem? we earned our claim to snobby recognition. go get your own.
@the real point columbia doesn’t care about you! didn’t it take a long time before undergrads were even allowed to step foot into butler?
@mike To the library debate, Barnard pays Columbia to use the libraries, so it’s not like they’re some sort of charity case we’re helping along. If you’re upset there’s too many people, it’s because Columbia sold your seat, so the hatred to Barnard is a bit misplaced.
As I said above, I think Barnard’s great and the argument of whether its students or professors are academically equal seems a bit irrelevant.
My feeling is that while people will argue about whether Barnard is part of Columbia, there’s no debate as to whether Barnard is part of *Barnard*. The only motivation for Barnard students to say they go to Columbia is the exact same snobby desire for recognition as the Columbia students who resent them for making that claim.
@numbers I know quite a few people who applied to both Barnard and CC, were rejected from CC and then went to Barnard. I would like to see the numbers indicating if anyone chose to go to Barnard over CC.
Also, to #60, the logic applied to the scores and acceptance rates if flawed. If it were true that the group who chose to go Barnard were part of a select group this would be reflected by higher than average test scores, in this case it would not matter if the acceptance rate is high because the scores would reflect that the people accepted were of a self selected elite group.
Like SEAS where the acceptance rate is somewhere in the twenties but the test scores are rather high.(also acceptance rate is the percentage of applicants of the total the school is willing to accept, not the number of people who choose to go there once accepted.)Self selection would increase the acceptance rate because few people are applying not because of people choosing not to go once accepted.
However, if the acceptace rate is higher, while the scores are on the lower end, it would indicate that overall the student body is of lower quality.
This is of course assuming that test scores and class rankings are really a measure of merit.
@nonono by self selection I meant those who would choose to go to an all-girls school
@seas admissions SEAS admissions are in the teens this year.
it’s a hot and on-the-rise school. US News ranks SEAS in the teens for engineering programs this year as well, even put next to large dedicated engineering schools like MIT, Georgia Tech, or large state schools like University of Michigan.
@some facts/thoughts 1.) i go to barnard
2.) judging from the columbia stats, i probably got better sat scores than you
3.) this doesn’t make me smarter than you. it just means i’m better at taking tests, which is a pretty esoteric skill
4.) despite the fact that i’m better at filling in bubbles than the average barnard student, i find myself continually challenged and impressed by the intellectual capacities of my peers.
5.) if you looked beyond statistics for a moment (test scores, acceptance rates, etc.) you might be able to learn a bit more from your classmates and from the college experience in general.
@untrue im almost positive you do not have higher scores than SEAS–we rank 4 or 5 in the country in many academic regards including SAT, SAT2, ACT, or other proficiency exams.
@more CU snobbery == more Barnard girls for me
@fuckin liars there are NO seats in the barnard library
LIES LIES LIES LIES
@mike ZAL, Barnard is actually *not* part of Columbia University. It is not under the Columbia Trustees, and students fulfill completely different requirements. Nothing against Barnard, but it’s really not a matter of opinion: Barnard is not part of Columbia University:
http://www.wikicu.com/Columbia-Barnard_relationship
@zal Mike, I agree that its a very odd setup, with having its own administration and financials. However, its graduates receive a Columbia University degree, the college is represented in the University Senate, and its faculty is tenured by Columbia University and teaches a certain number of graduate level classes. That seems like its part of the university to me.
Separately, post #60 is very well said.
@ZAL I don’t really think that does illustrate that, mainly because you have left out some select lines from the website such as:
Barnard is located just across Broadway from Columbia’s main campus and is one of four undergraduate schools within the Columbia University system (the others are Columbia College, the Fu Foundation School of Engineering and Applied Science, and the School of General Studies).
Also:
Barnard students receive the diploma of the University signed by the presidents of both institutions, and the College is represented in the University Senate.
@umm CHARACTER
A liberal arts college for women in New York City founded in 1889. Barnard has its own campus, faculty, administration, trustees, operating budget, and endowment. Through the Barnard-Columbia partnership, students on both campuses choose from a wide array of courses and academic resources and take part in a great variety of student organizations. Barnard has a long tradition of graduating leaders in the arts, business, government, and science.
-Courtesy of the Barnard website, I think this illustrates that Barnard is not an undergraduate college of the university, but part of an undefined “relationship” with columbia
@well what relationships at this school AREN’T “undefined”???
That felt good. I’m going to go cry now.
@Whatever Lerner is the shit. Nicer chairs, natural sunlight, wireless and outlets galore, and it isn’t full of fucking crazy people that live in the library.
@bullshit fuckwits who spend time typing paragraphs about the leech-like qualities of Barnard girls need to get out of their precious library and get a life. Live and let live assholes.
@you better be nice to barnard girls, they may be your bosses in the future.
@I know What husband won’t admit his housewife isn’t his boss?
@haha oh snap
@hey dimwits. sure, barnard gets access to a lot more than the college itself would be able to provide, but its not LEECHING on the university, barnard pays money each year to have access to university resources. so stfu. and furthermore, if barnard students should not be allowed in butler, or if their access thereof should be limited, then we must extend such regulations university-wide, thereby restricting pesky little undergraduates from Uris (thats right, next time you want to go a group project do it in the lounge of butler). etc.
@ZAL Contrary to what you say, Barnard is an undergraduate college of the University.
@cc student barnard classes are easier. i took spanish at barnard 2 of the semesters to fulfill my language requirement and those classes were much easier than the spanish classes i took at columbia. although, i really don’t mind barnard students in columbia classes (as well as gs for that matter) because they help the curve out. thanks guys!!!
@CC '10 It’s true that Barnard is getting the best end of the deal. Despite the constant retorts that Columbia students are merely elitist or arrogant, or just plain ignorant, the fact remains that they do not go to Columbia. I love the majority of Barnard girls I meet but there is no way to argue that this is a mutually beneficial relationship. Columbia students are elitist but probably more so becuase the school across the street has an acceptance rate of 28 percent, while CC has the lowest acceptance rate in the country. Can we please cut the bullshit and recognize that there is a pretty big difference here. Harvard-Radcliffe… I think so
@so? first of all, I’ve taken a couple classes at Barnard that I’ve greatly enjoyed (Esp. Intro to Int’l Politics w/ Marten. take it!!!) I would in fact argue that it is a mutually beneficial relationship, and some COlumbia students don’t recognize that because they’re either too caught of in the pretension to notice that there are a lot of great classes there (the polisci department especially). Not to mention the fact that it feels rather assholish to one-up a school because your acceptance rate is higher. First of all I suspect an all-girls school application class tends to be comprised of a more self-selecting bunch (My sister has patently refused to apply to Smith). I mean, there are what, 500 students per class at Barnard? The acceptance rate at Barnard is higher because many who get in might not choose to go there, and it’s a small pool of applicants already. That doesn’t keep it from being a great liberal arts school.
Fuck, there went another 10 minutes of cramming.
@epb Acceptance rates on their own are only part of the picture, as you said. However, part of a school’s claim to excellence relies on how many people who are admitted actually matriculate.
If we assume that high school seniors pick the best education to which they have access, then it seems that Barnard doesn’t make the cut in a lot of people’s eyes.
Additionally, even a cursory look at the statistics on princetonreview.com shows that Columbia attracts a much more elite population than Barnard.
Barnard students do get a good education – nobody is denying that. However, Columbia students should be forgiven for their annoyance because we had to work much harder to get here than Barnard students did, on average. Do we have a right to complain? Perhaps not. Do we have to like Barnard even though they have the right to use our facilities? Not at all.
@welll... “Do we have to like Barnard even thought they have the right to use our facilities? Not at all?”
That sentence doesn’t make a whole lot of sense…what does Barnard’s use of Columbia facilities have to do with its overall likeability? All I’m saying is that just because Columbia is ranked higher doesn’t mean that Barnard should be slighted. People worked pretty hard to get there too I’d imagine. The students at Barnard are extremely active in the campus community, especially in student groups, and I think that the campus environment would be very different without them.
@epb My point is that a common criticism of Barnard is the fact that they use Butler Library. As students in the university, whether we like it or not, Barnard students have the right to use Butler (and enroll in Columbia classes, etc.).
Despite this, Columbia students aren’t necessarily incorrect to consider Barnard not to be on the same level as Columbia.
@yeah... and we have the right to take their classes, libraries, and facilities as well. It is a mutual relationship. There are many classes there that are better than their CU equivalents.
@CC 09 in response to 38 the only classes CC kids take at Barnard (besides trying to take easier lectures), are urban studies, architechture and dance. I don’t blame Barnard girls for using Butler, their library is possibly the ugliest one I have ever seen. However, it still makes sense to institute some sort of policy where Barnard girls are limited during times when seats are short. Unlike SEAS, GS and CC they are not undergrad schools at Columbia. No matter how you spin it, Barnard is an affiliate institution that is “proud” of its identity while continuing to leach off the university for pretty much everything. There should be limitations to make sure that Columbia Undergraduates reap the benefits of Columbia and are not forced to share everything with an institution that can’t afford to exist on its own. An easy solution is for Barnard to let itself be absorbed. Then we won’t waste time arguing about status, their admissions rate will drop, campus space will increase, it’s a win-win for everyone… except those intractably independent women. An alternative is to start restricting access (beyond dorm access), to ensure that everything is equitable. This would drive Barnard to the bargaining table pretty quick.
@"the only classes CC kids take at Barnard (besides trying to take easier lectures), are urban studies, architechture and dance”
and theater.
@well the magazine is a GQ, fuckwit. i’m embarassed to be at the same school as you.
oh and also, the cover is Stephen Colbert. Does that make it more acceptable to your sensibilities?
@hey kids why don’t you study in your rooms? i have been doing this for four years, and while all of you are at the ‘quiet’ library, i am in the dorms which are super quiet while everyone is out.
@angry cc student I HATE PEOPLE THAT SET UP DESKS LIKE THAT. i’m gonna start stealing peoples laptops that do that. don’t people realize that if everyone just left butler when they weren’t doing work then a whole lot more would get done. once you leave, someone else can show up, then someone else will leave by the time you come back. i think there should be some petition to end this type of bullshit. there should be a one hour grace period where you can leave shit at a desk and if you aren’t back by then your stuff should be confiscated. why doesn’t columbia student council do something useful with their time like institute this policy, at least during finals, rather than make dumb flyers all the time
@I love Sumaiya Sumaiya is perhaps one of the most amazing human beings on this campus. If it wasn’t for her, I think Columbia would be a very very sad place.
@Sumaiya Fan Sumaiya is fuckin awesome. All you commentators re:Butler have totally missed the point. More Sumaiya at all costs – I’ll even give up all rights to the precious Butler alcoves for my next two years here.
@No no no no no Barnard doesn’t have a 24-hour library? Oops, should have thought about that when you applied.
@yeah.. that’s stupid… who applies to a school based on library hours… dumbass.
@what is so bad about people sleeping in the library? it’s not like it’s packed at 4 AM.
look, the way the butler society – yes, indeed there is one – sees it, if you go there alot, and we recognize you as one of our own, you can do whatever you want. whatever school you’re from. so don’t take our seats, and don’t get pissed when we actually use the place. it is our home you know. you missed out on squatter’s rights september 10th BITCH.
@24/7 libraries Can’t Columbia open up one or two additional libraries 24/7, at least during finals? While it’s true that there are some decent 24/7 study spaces – like Hartley’s 10th floor lounge or Broadway’s – the reality is people don’t think to use those. Opening another library would get people’s attention and definitely alleviate the Butler overcrowding.
@butler has ghosts.
@Yeah... I would have pushed that shit to the side and sat down.
@Ahem Funny I’ve managed to write every paper from my room. Have you idiots every heard of photocopiers?
@but there are non-columbians using butler too.
that’s anoying.
and fyi, some ppl need to hold a desk for more than a day bc of all the library books and thesis papers.
@yeah no thats bullshit… part of the reasons libraries exist is so you can check books out of them.
@i think the commenter’s point was that no one wants to lug their books back and forth from their dorm (where they probably don’t have the space to spread out like that or the quiet to concentrate) to the library.
@gavuole can’t fucking stand butler and the way people operate there
seriously, one of the worst things about this school is the way people camp out in there. it’s selfish as hell.
@why do people refuse to use other libraries? Barnard is deserted. Why? Because all the Barnard girls are over at Butler.
@because barnard library doesn’t get wireless.
thank god for lerner.
@also there are only about 4 outlets in the barnard reading room. which especially sucks when your computer battery only lasts 45 minutes.
@a kinder cc09 yeah, butler is pretty sucky in that respect. i can’t get ethernet to work, either.
also, commenter #18 is trying to be snarky but makes a good point: barnard library is not open all night. i mean, as long as barnard is part of columbia university, barnard students should be able to use columbia university’s library. it’s not like butler is just for cc students or anything.
that said, nothing drives me crazier than when creepy older people (gs? grad students? i have no idea!) decide to take naps in the library and proceed to SNORE for hours. gross.
@GSer I’m GS and I don’t go there unless I have to. Place gives me the creeps.
@#19 yeah, more power to you. there are a few people i see all the time who seem too unhinged to be in any sort of undergraduate college… i certainly don’t mean to badmouth GS here.
@barnard can someone tell me why barnard girls use butler? is it proof of just how badly they wish they went to columbia, or is there some legit reason (like theirs not being open 24/7) for them taking over our library?
@umm yes there is a reason.
Butler is the ONLY library on campus with 24/7 reading rooms. Plus it has wireless. Sure, Lerner and various classrooms are open for late night study sessions, but butler is the preferred spot because its convenient. Why start studying at 7pm somewhere when you know you’re going to just have to move to butler at 11 pm?
ok seriously, those of you wanting to kick out barnard are just a little insecure. those of you wanting to kick out gs? whats your rationale? how are they different from you in terms of academic standing at the university in any way? they’re getting the same exact instruction in the same exact classes and getting the same exact degree as you (except its not in latin.) so get over it already.
Columbia pulled a fast one on you- it turns out there are over 8,000 undergraduates on this campus, not 4000.
-CC07
@but who the hell thinks there are only 4000 undergrads? do people really apply thinking seas and barnard and gs don’t exist?
@seas 07 i didn’t know that barnard existed til i got here for orientation, and it was sometime during my first semester that i found out about gs. i’m sure i’m not the only one. so yes, people apply not knowing barnard and gs exist.
@and even those who know they exist don’t know just how involved they are with undergrad life at CU – like Barnard students filling up our classes or GS students (especially the geriatrics) asking dumb questions in our lectures.
@more like cc students fill up Barnard classes
@more like cc students fill up barnard students.
@SEAS '10 I’m in SEAS, but I almost think that GS students are more qualified to use Butler than some of the CC/SEAS students who are complaining about them. They most likely live further away from campus than a lot of us who live in John Jay, Carman, McBain etc. Now don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of things that irritate me about some GS students (like please stfu and stop asking dumb questions to which you already know the answer, no one is amazed by you), but using Butler isn’t one of them.
@cc09 i am totally cool with gs students, but i just wish people would go home at night instead of using the library as a crash pad.
@Columbia 09 I think butler should reserved for undergraduates only, kick out barnard girls and gs students, they are the ones taking over our places.
@disgusted observer this girl isn’t even studying. look closely: there is a copy of the village voice, a zagat’s guide, an unidentifiable glossy fashion-type magazine, a subway map, and possibly some dvds. THE LIBRARY IS NOT YOUR HOME. someone should steal her computer.
@also there’s also a subway map. n00b.
@n00b retard. 9 already noticed the map. pwnd.
@Hmm Who is Tessa? Can anyone identify?
@why is it that whenever i have a shitload of work and exams to take, all my neighbors decide to hump like fucking monkeys?! WHY?! I HOPE ALL YOU FUCKERS (literally) GET FUCKING PREGNANT!
@haha i own an alcove on but 303. i will relinquish it in june.
good luck suckers–shoulda gone to that safety school
@columbia '08 no, what’s annoying is people leaving their shit all over butler during finals week so that no one else can sit there while they’re out at class or sleeping or whatever. when you leave, just pick your shit up with you or i’m just gonna go ahead and help myself to not only the cubicle, but anything i feel like that is lying there in public student space
@No like the But I agree with Columbia 08, I also hate it when i try to find a free space and only 60% of the desks are manned, the rest is just occupied by peoples rooms, some people even bring their own lamps… Thats just ridiculous. If you are gone, take your room with you. If you come back and your precious space is taken, too bad, thats life. Maybe you should just have one in the first place and not live in Butler all year around.
@okay people who steal cubicles are annoying.
that is all.
@is this it? No more photocontests?
@wow tessa must have been really out of it. only sane intruders get punished?