535 Comments
This evening, after a 45-minute long diatribe by a preachy opening speaker, a large group of students rushed Minuteman Project founder Jim Gilchrist, in what descended into a free-for-all on the stage. Scroll below for the blow-by-blow and photos.
3:45 PM: Releases by the University and by the College Republicans appended below.
3:21 AM: Those who occupied the stage have released a statement, which has been added to the bottom of the post.
1:56 AM: Chicano Caucus press release at the bottom of the post.
1:23 AM: YouTube is down at the moment. Bwog is working to provide an alternative, so stay tuned.
CTV’s video of the protest:
7: 30 PM: In the biggest old-fashioned activist shindig Broadway has seen since Chris Kulawik’s last guest arrived in November 2005, hundreds of students and community members yelled and picketed outside Lerner to protest the arrival of Jim Gilchrist, founder of the Minutemen. They had catchy slogans.
“Workers of the world unite! Same struggle, same fight!”
“Minutemen, Nazis, KKK! Racists, fascists, go away!”
8:10 PM: A little Miles Davis music on overhead in Roone Arledge Auditorium strikes Bwog as ironic. Opening speaker Marvin Stewart steps up to the podium, and begins by thanking Jesus Christ and Chris Kulawik. “ARE YOU READY to surrender your liberties?” he demands of the crowd.
8:35 PM: Stewart is 30 minutes into a free-associative rant, ranging through scripture and America’s Consitutional Republican form of government (NOT Democratic). People in the increasingly restless crowd shout: “You don’t know shit about god! Black white supremacist!” “Go home! ”
to which Stewart counters: “I am home! God bless America!
to which the crowd replies: “BOOOOOOOOOOO!”
It’s getting more surreal by the minute.
Update 8:41 pm: Someone yells, “In Spanish, please!” The crowd bursts into a thunderous applause, which spirals into a full-out protest, complete with students wearing Mexican wrestling masks. The students are now standing up one by one, with their backs to the man, who has asked, “Are you standing with your backs to me? Why’d you come, no wonder you don’t know anything.” Republicans cheered, others sneered.
Update 8:45 pm: Some white-shirted students were just escorted out of the auditorium by security.
Update 8:47 pm: The man at the podium is still ranting, despite the beads of sweat trickling down his forehead and his voice-cracks… “Religion and morality are necessary for government.” Students chanting: “Wrap it up! Wrap it up!” Some guy just came out to try to get him to stop, and he said, “Let me finish…” he’s sweating, and looks angry. “All of you who are doing your chanting in here are the very ones that need this the most. But guess what, I’m not deterred.”
Update 8:51 pm: “I’m going to wrap this up because time is an issue.” With Kulawik looking uncomfortable, Stewart stops talking with a boisterous “God Bless America, and America Bless God!” Taking the podium, Kulawik chastens the crowd. “I was under the false assumption that this was an Ivy League School,” he says.
Finally, the Minuteman himself enters. “Now who’re you calling racist?” he shouts, putting his arm around Stewart, who is black. “I love the First Amendment. As soon as you graduate, you’ll all be investment bankers. I’ve been where you at. I know you hate yourselves.”
Update 9:00 pm: BWOG IS SHOCKED. STUDENTS WITH A BIG YELLOW SIGN JUST CAME ONTO THE STAGE. The sign says, “There are no illegals.” Students rise en masse from the audience and rush the stage. The Minuteman and the students engaged in a tug of war with the banner. More people rush the stage, prompting a fist-fight. One female student is kicked in the head. A guy in a pony tail (definitely not a student) rushes the stage and fights with students (several witnesses saw him kick a student) and then banded together with the Minuteman to shout the pledge of allegiance as the rumble spun out of hand, “One nation! Under God! Indivisible!”
There was at least two minutes of chaos between students, other students and the Minutemen. Bwog took cover.
Update: 9:01 pm: Security comes out, now the curtain is down. Students are still chanting, now everyone’s filing out.
Update: 9:15 pm: Students outside shouting, “They say, ‘get bent,’ we say, ‘let’s fight!'”
Update: 9:22 pm: A Bwog correspondent calls in a tip. A student defending the Minuteman right outside the gates on 115th was encircled by a group of protesters after a heated personal fight with just one of the protesters. The protesters then shouted, “Racist, go home!” Security showed up, and they started breaking up. Student last seen laughing on phone with friends. A mosh pit of triumphal students and community members dance and chant, “Asian, Black, Brown and White, we smashed the Minutemen tonight!”
Everyone and their mother has official responses to the brawl, after the jump…
– Bwogging by Lydia DePillis, Sara Vogel, and Will Snider
Press release from the Chicano Caucus, one of the main organizers of the protest:
On behalf of the Chicano Caucus Executive Board, I would like to clarify for the Columbia community any misunderstandings that may have arisen from tonight’s chain of events. While we were the chief organizers of the protest outside Roone Arledge, we were not responsible for any of the actions that led to the termination of the event. It is unfortunate that the series of events escalated to a point of violence. We feel that it is important to discuss and bring to light important issues concerning immigration, though they should be done in a peaceful manner. While we do not agree with Mr. Gilchrist and his organization’s views, we respect everyone’s right to freedom of speech and regret that his opinion was not heard.
Sincerely,
Adhemir Romero
Chicano Caucus President
Statement released by “Those who occupied the stage:”
We celebrate free speech: for that reason we allowed the Minutemen to speak, and for that same reason we peacefully occupied the stage and spoke ourselves. Our peaceful protest was violently attacked by members of the College Republicans and their supporters, who are the very same people who invited the Minutemen to our campus in the first place. The Minutemen are not a legitimate voice in the debate on immigration. They are a racist, armed militia who have declared open hunting season on immigrants, causing countless hate crimes and over 3000 deaths on the border. Why should exploitative corporations have free passes between nations, but individual people not? No human being is illegal.
University Statement on Disruption of the Columbia College Republican’s Minutemen ForumFree Speech on Campus is Everyone’s Right and Responsibility
The University deplores the disruption that took place last night at the “Minutemen Forum” sponsored by the Columbia College Republicans at Alfred Lerner Hall. The specific facts surrounding the incident are under active investigation by the University and so it is premature to make any official statement regarding facts that are yet to be confirmed.
This much is a matter of core principle at Columbia: The freedom to speak, to pursue ideas, and to hear and evaluate viewpoints totally objectionable to our own is an essential value of this university and, indeed, of our civil society. We defend the right to peaceful protest and expression of opposing views. But it is never acceptable for anyone to physically take to a stage and interrupt a speaker.
Our regulations are intended to help event organizers, participants and protestors maintain a safe environment for members of the University community and their guests to engage in meaningful and sometimes contentious debate across the spectrum of academic and political issues. We will continue to review the events of last evening to determine how that safe environment was violated and take appropriate measures to ensure it does not happen again.
Statement by the Columbia College Republicans
On October 4, 2006 the founder of the Minuteman Project was assaulted moments after he began speaking. Students stormed the stage, brandishing a banner, as a further wave of student protesters rushed the speaker in a pre-meditated and coordinated
attack. Within moments, the entire room erupted with the speaker’s entourage rushing to protect him while Columbia security stood idly by. After fifteen chaotic minutes, the limited security presence finally gained control and terminated the event.
We are ashamed for our university today in light of the actions of our peers and the inaction of our administration.
“As a moderator on stage during the event, I was put in physical danger,” says Chris Kulawik, President of the Columbia University College Republicans.
“The ability of political minorities to express themselves safely on campus has been called into serious question tonight,” says Lucas Michelson, a junior in Columbia College.
“This has jeopardized our ability to host future events,” says Lauren Steinberg, Executive Director of the College Republicans.
Statement by the Latino Alumni Association of Columbia University
The Latino Alumni Association of Columbia University (LAACU) notes with much concern the violent incident that occurred when Jim Gilchrist, founder of the Minutemen, was on the Columbia University Campus during a student organized event. While LAACU encourages educational events that foster an academic debate and present a balanced dialogue on important and timely issues, such as the immigration question in the United States, LAACU deplores any violent actions, inflammatory remarks, and other provocations that may have caused an escalation to violence. LAACU stands ready to offer its support to the Columbia University community.
LAACU was established to support, promote and channel the academic, social, professional and developmental interests of Columbia University’s Latino community, both past and present.
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535 Comments
@Anonymous i thought the minuteman protest was funny actually, but definitely inappropriate. the ability to stage opinions, no matter how right or wrong, is essential to progress.. instead of embarrassing the columbia community, i would have rather let the minutemen speak their will and walk away realizing how wrong they really are in their ideology and propositions.
BUT, i am not ashamed that they were not welcome here at this university.
@Anonymous Columbia University
An Anti-American MADRASA, principled in an intellectual peculiarly of A TRUTH and of selective rights to Free Speech.
Yet, on this September 2006 day teeming of intolerance more akin to Fascist Nazism than Liberalism.
Articulated at a mere disagreeable view of truth and a right of free expression as if unworthy.
Indeed, an infamous day for Academic pursuits of free thought and expression where a voice is better shouted down than heard in fair and honest debate.
Is this Columbia University view of a free society or is it Hugo Chavez’s view instead?
@Jonah “Yes, we’re headed towards a race war”
No, Minutemen supporters aren’t neo-Nazis. Not at all.
This shit actually isn’t new, and we should be clear about that. White supremacists in the US have been attacking immigrants for 160 years now. And their line really hasn’t changed all that much.
@William I would add, the intensity of the student’s beliefs on race and immigration is almost religious in nature. The religious fervor on display was shocking. It reminds me of the witch hunters in 17th C. Massachusetts, or the Muslims currently threatening, bombing, and slaughtering the infidels. That’s what we are up against here: religious fanatics who use intimdation, terror, and violence to achieve their objectives.
@William It’s easy. If it looks like a terrorist, walks like a terrorist, talks like a terrorist….it’s most likely a terrorist. What I think is happening here is that the students, and their defenders, are going to start backtracking. They know they fucked up big time, and they’re scared. But, as I keep saying, this is the real world and actions have consequences, as we shall see very soon :). Too, this issue isn’t confined to the CU campus in Harlem, or to NYC in general; it’s a problem throughout the West. The militants should realize that. The student terrorists and their fellow travelers should consider long and hard what exactly they intend to accomplish, for their own sake. I suspect they will come to understand in due course that they have bitten off more than they can chew. In the meantime, the war is escalating.
@reply HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE
TO HELL WITH THE MINUTE-KKKLAN
VIVA LA REVOLUCION
@William In the real world, you should be able to defend yourself, by any means available, from terrorists, be they Muslims or socialists or student militants. Let me emphasize: those CU students are terrorists (and should be treated as such). They employed hate speech, intimidation, and physical assault. Get it? This is the real world. Actions have consequences.
@Anonymous wow no I don’t get it. I think we have gone down the wrong path if you are going to equate those students with terrorists; Terrorists that blow up buildings and kill people without remorse.
There was likely hate speech and intimidation, but by all accounts I haven’t heard of provoked or unprovoked physical assault. Yes actions have consquences, not disproportionate ones though.
@umm it’s not a double standard, jackass. the minutemen are reprehensible. but that’s no reason to sink to their level.
@ehsehs You know what’s amazing? That Minutemen are allowed to dismiss those “rogues” that go too far and SHOOT people and not count them amongst their midst/cause, but that *ofcourse* these handful of people are representive of both *all* of liberals and *all* of Columbia University. The double standards are astounding.
@give us evidence or all you are is a slandering bigot
@William The anti-American Left, at least at CU and in NYC, has just escalated a growing conflict. They’ve upped the ante. They’ve brought things to a whole new level.
Remember, kids: violence works.
@Anonymous You fucking assholes! Free speech? Not at Colombia University. The left is so far left they have left the freaking building. You think this immature display will garner any respect from anyone or any group that upholds our countries greatest liberty, free speech? Fucking assholes. And guess what I’m a Democrat. Grow up cause in the real world this behavior is not acceptable.
@pigpen jim, no , not specifically, i just saw ANSWER mentioned and addressed it. i don’t have a fully formed analysis of violence in general. it’s certainly not desirable, but neither is rigid non-violence. if hammerskins come to a punk show throwing blows, there are few options, really. i’m not in favor of initiating violence, but looking at the issue as a dichotomy is not helpful, in my opinion.
@William The answer to terrorists, such as the ones who rushed the stage and assaulted the Minutemen speakers, is to shut them down. End of story. After all, violence works.
@Anonymous From John: “As to social services and education, it can’t be repeated often enough that temps and illegals don’t use them much because they have either no families or no papers.”
This is so far from the truth I almost didn’t bother to respond to it. Come to California (or any other border state) and open your eyes. In LA county, many schools have an illegal alien population of over 60%. In much of southern Cal it’s over half. Illegals consume social services at a rate much higher than native born citizens. When the facts are allowed to stand, the only recourse those who support open borders have is to label enforcement-first people like Gilchrist a racist. It’s pathetic. Before you post things like this you need to do a minimum of research. As far as affecting native’s jobs, the entire construction industry in LA has been occupied by illegals. Drywalling, a well paying job which used to be a gateway to the middle class for black Americans, has now been taken over by low paid illegals. These are the facts. You need to get out a little more and open your eyes. Groups like the Minutemen are also on the forefront of fighting the Security and Prosperity Partnership of the Americas which seeks to erase our borders with Canada and Mexico. By opposing them and accusing them falsely of crime and racism, you’re empowering those globalists who seek to change the face of this nation all in the name of cheap labor and a subservient, easily-governed population. Please stop being a puppet calling for the destruction of your own country. Ignorace is very dangerous.
@William Yes, we’re headed towards a race war, thanks to the suicidal policies of mass immigration and multiculturalism. You’ve left Americans no choice but to defend our country, our loved ones, and our children, by any means necessary. We didn’t vote for this. But you’ve driven us into a corner. White America is waking up (thanks in large part to terrorist stunts like the one at CU) and there’s nothing you can do about it. When the blood starts flowing–and believe me, it will–it will be on your hands.
@whateveryournameis I dare you to cross into Mexico illegally. The Mexican borderguards have always been under orders to shoot trespassers with extreme prejudice. Do you think thats fair or are you white liberal and guilty?
From Canada
cosmion
@Jim Hello pigpen,
Are you addressing this to me?
Jim
@William Next time, the Minutemen and their supporters should come to Columbia armed. I’m serious. Not only must we defend ourselves and our friends, but if need be these anti-White terrorists need to be taught a lesson for all the world to see. Terrorism shall not be tolerated. It’s events like this that are moving our country closer towards civil war. Personally, I can’t wait.
@Billy Hello William,
What you are talking about is not just a civil war but a race war!! Is that what you really want?
Maybe one day we will just be able to kill anyone with whom we disagree – the Jews, niggers, spics, wetbacks, gypsies, Jehovah’s Witnesses and especially the guy who parts his hair on the right side of his heads!
@Anonymous national attenetion has really brought the psychos to Bwog. So the answer to rowdy college kids with banners is to bring guns and shoot them. Interesting.
@pigpen Alright, I ain’t from New York – i’m from Ohio. so i probably have a lot more experience with organized racist groups than most new york folks. Front groups are a common tactic. The Minutemen include many dedicated hardline nazis – i’m talking the Nation Socialist Movement, the Aryan Nation, the Hammerskins, etc.
Would you debate Hitler? Would you try to change Stalin’s (obviously I’m not an A.N.S.W.E.R. lackey) mind? Many comments here are very naive. I have a lot of experience with organized racists, and they WILL kill you if given the chance. It’s not an exageration – it’s happened before and will continute to. It’s just the way it is.
@ever hear of maquiladoras??
@HiringOne As Director of Human Resources of a Fortune 1000 company I have my solution. Regardless of qualifications, I already have the standard, “Thank you for applying…” letter ready for anyone with “Columbia” on their resume’. I’ll file their resume’ in the trash.
@QualifiedOne Even for the College Republicans who invited Mr. Gilchrist to speak and who put themselves between him and the animals who rushed the stage? Though I’m not in the College Republicans, I certainly am a Columbia Student who thoroughly repudiates the actions of the lunatic fringe who attacked Mr. Gilchrist.
@Anonymous Hello HiringOne,
I do believe that your comments if actually put into practice are a violation of your comapny’s non-discrimination policy. Good thing you don’t have the balls to write which company you work for and the phone number by which we can request an interview, you might have been looking at a world of trouble.
@OldGuy Hey Stephen,
Welcome to the real world. Right, wrong or indifferent, it is called consequences for one’s actions. Good luck in trying to prove it. I personally don’t agree with that action, but free speech doesn’t mean their aren’t consequences for what you say. Measure your words and/or actions…they may come back to haunt you.
@Anonymous I don’t disagree, everyone should be judicious of what they say and/or do. However, I like to think in the real world, organized political speeches should not ever reach the point where you would even consider shooting protesting students. That is dependent on the mutual self restraint on both sides not to let things get out of hand.
I don’t think you should ever have to be scared to speak out on issues that you care about though. Sadly, I think the speakers last night got a frightening little jump.
@Jim ANSWER is largely a front for Worker’s World – a Trotskyist organization started by Sam Marcy.
Wake up people! These guys are playing you for idiots. Don’t let them provoke you into acts of violence. That’s what they do!!
Use reasonable debate and gtenuine discussion but can the violence! It will only lead to repression.
I went through all of this in 1968 and 1969 and I will tell you it cannot work! It is counterproductive to any cause.
@Bill You’re right Jim! A.N.S.W.E.R. largely operates as a “provacateur” organization. They look for inflammatory issues to capitalize upon and provoke and encourage onlookers to violent acts. BEWARE!
@Anonymous Actually I apologize for that last comment, I understand what your point is now. What has happened in the past doesn’t make it okay for people to jump to the conclusion that it was the “liberals”. Plus outside of last year’s incident with Ashcroft and D’Souza, I would contend that your examples are still minority voices that are being lumped together as speaking for the liberal community.
There is no reason to have assumed last night’s incident was a concerted effort of the Columbia liberal community, actually you would think it was predominantly those intimitely tied to the immigration debate, independent of political slant.
Anyways apologies. Your point rang hollow with me though, but I can see where you were try to come from.
@hey stephen i apologize too if you feel i made ad hom attacks and if i did. i think we can agree to disagree on the issue here, but i think you’re still misreading me here
i agree that the liberal establishment at columbia shouldn’t be tarnished. they try to conduct themselves in a civil manner most of the time
but by the same token i completely understand why conservatives feel like they can’t speak freely or really challenge orthodoxies on the campus
@Anonymous Awesome, let’s move on.
Oh I definitely understand why conservatives don’t feel like they can speak freely on campus. I think it is obvious tha we are a very liberal campus, that is not to say that anything not left of the center should be unacceptable, and conservatives are in the minority.
I think perhaps the biggest problem is the pairing of what is happening within the university bubble and in the United States in the minds of Columbia students. By most counts, I think that moderates and conservatives outweigh the liberal voice in the real world and Columbia and nyc are the sole outlets where their liberalism is appreciated and not rejected and categorized into the pinko-commie-treehugging-hippy category.
I feel the biggest problem is the conservative representation at Columbia. It is a bit of a vicious cycle as the conservatives advance the discourse by serving up very inflammatory and controversial subject matters to draw attention to themselves to avoid fading into obscurity. At the same time I can see how conservative CU students would be hesitant to reveal their conservative beliefs as neoconservatism has really grasped the modern day conservative dialogue and the CU liberal population would… and has lumped them right into that convenient far right box. Then again, it is up to the minority to speak up and present themselves as a legitimite voice without having to pull shocking stunts and extremely controversial guests.
That said, I learned a lot from my conservative peers during my time at Columbia. I still dont’ agree with them but I know where they are coming from.
@Mike “Why should exploitative corporations have free passes between nations, but individual people not?”
Corporations certainly don’t have “free passes” between nations. Ever hear of taxes and tariffs? Not to mention a myriad of different laws they must abide by in different jurisdictions.
Whoever made that statement deserves to die. Fucking communist.
@Mike I support killing all illegal immigrants.
Also kill the socialist/communist pieces of shit who shouted down the Minutemen.
@E. L. “Why should exploitative corporations have free passes between nations, but individual people not?”
Why do exploitative corporations have free passes to murder and plunder but ordinary people do not?
Mmm, because it’s wrong?
Problem #1 is the person who immigrates illegally, regardless of the reason (there is a legal process for immigration and a process for amnesty). It’s a disrespect to the entered nation. Problem #2 is the business which, instead of honoring the nation, says, “Hey, we can make a lot of money off of this illegal activity!” Neither is right.
Let’s imagine someone removes the front door to your house, apartment, etc. Then, after you get sick and tired of those entering using your possessions, eating your food, etc., and you try to stop people from entering, a bunch of brainwashed college students show up and smother you with signs reading “No one is trespassing”.
One more step toward global communism, courtesy of the trotskyite neocons which co-opted the Minuteman movement. See WING TV’s interview with Joe McCutcheon at http://www.wingtv.net.
@E. L. A quick clarification:
“”Why should exploitative corporations have free passes between nations, but individual people not?”
Why do exploitative corporations have free passes to murder and plunder but ordinary people do not?
Mmm, because it’s wrong?”
That is, just because KBR does it, doesn’t mean anyone else should, either!
@cmon 500 baby. whenever a bwog post gets 500 comments an angel gets its wings.
@Jon Umm, no, actually, this country was made great by immigrants who wanted to assimilate and become Americans. By this, I mean that they wanted to work hard, make sure that their children got educated (under our rules), and ensure that their children would have it better than they did. This country did not become great by letting in million immigrants who want to recreate their old country here.
@Childish tactics I hate to see these students as an adult and running OUR Country!
@boredatbutler.com Check out http://www.boredatbutler.com for an up to the minute discussion regarding the Minutement protest.
@Anthony Sosa Video of Gilchrist getting a “Columbia beatdown”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qda_ONunsps
@Flapjack Slim Some of you may never understand the issues at stake here, and although that realization strikes me as equally saddening and pathetic, I can only hope that at least a single pair of eyes were opened last night. There is a reason why most moderates do not resort to actions like those of last night–they simply do not recognize their own responsibility for the injustice, oppression and exploitation that occur daily with or without their knowledge or consent. The left is angrier than the right because they–and those with silenced voiced for whom they fight–are awake to how much we all stand to lose.
@Edd I think Gilchrist is an definitely an idiot, probably a racist, and possibly even a murderer. His views are repugnant, and yeah, he’s caused more than his share of injustive, oppression, and exploitation. I also tend to think none of that negates his right to free speech, but that’s entirely beside the point. The point, which so many people advocating radical solutions like what happened last night fail to grasp, is this: This is exactly what he wanted to happen. It plays right into his hands. What were the “issues at stake” last night? Had the protestors not taken their courageous stand, what would have happened? A lame guy would have given a lame speech to a half full auditorium, and hardly anyone would have noticed or cared. Instead, because 20 kids were so “awake,” what do we get? Gilchrist gets perfect propaganda to serve his agenda. I guarantee you, not a single pair of eyes were opened; everyone’s stereotypes were reinforced, and the only people who may have been heartened by the protest were those who already agreed with its aims. This is already all over the internet and New York media, and will be all over cable news tonight. Because of the attention generated by this incident, Gilchrist gets an audience of millions instead of the couple hundred he would have spoken to last night. He energizes his supporters, and convinces some who were on the fence that the pro-immigrant movement is not to be taken seriously. He raises lots of funds with which to fund more injustice, oppression, and exploitation. So tell me, what exactly was accomplished by those brave few who are “awake to how much we all stand to lose”?
@Flapjack Slim You raise a crucial point which I do not deny. The purpose of my statement was merely to address the center-right argument that “they” would never act so passionately (rudely) (angrily) (etc.) I’m not trying to debate the realpolitik outcome of last night’s action. I merely wish to assert that the volatility of the left is symptomatic of its dangerous marginalization in this country. The center-right doesn’t bite because the center isn’t backed into the wall.
@Anonymous Why exactly does every Republican that comes onto this thread immediately start kicking and screaming and blaming what happened on some ubiquitous “liberal” presence that is ever vigilent in oppressing the measly conservative voice on campus?
There is really no reason to say that the disrupters were “liberals”, why do we make a political shit storm over this when we can instead say that the disrupters were those passionately concerned about the livelihood of immigrants, illegal or otherwise? I don’t think it’s accurate to say that they are all liberals. Whiners. Oh help help i’m being oppressed.
@i'm sorry are you an idiot? lets look at teh history here. at a teach de genova wishes a million mogadishus. years before dsouza and a bunch of speakers were forced off campus. after that the history dept head said perhaps serious studies of history aren’t something conservatives can conduct. now, during an event teh speakers and students have it ended by a bumrushing of the stage.
around the corner we’ll have training on how to be less oppressive and will have no speakers willing to come to campus
let us do that to your viewpoint and then tell us how confident you feel in expressing dissenting opinions
i’ve officially lost all respect for you stephen
@Anonymous I’m sorry you’ve lost all respect for me… I don’t know who you are and don’t really care.
Instead of calling me an idiot, how about addressing the question? Why is everything that happened last night labeled as the machinations of the “Columbia liberals”?
Every report has the protestors noted as members of other schools, part of the ISO, or Chicano Caucus. What are those, a microchasm of Columbia? There is no valid reason for lumping blame on liberals, for all you know they could have been any mix of liberal, conservative, moderate, but just happened to be energized by the cause of immigration.
Way to address the content of the question and throw out the ad hominem.
@i actually did address one of your point, the part where you said why repubs here claim to be the victim. after seeing the laundry list you decided you lost the point and asked why i didn’t address the other point.
as for that one. i agree. this isn’t likely the result of the work of columbia mainstream liberal community. the college dems were civil excellent throughout this. i have immense respect for them. However, it undeniable that while this might not have been the work of liberals, it does again affect conservatives. now i don’t want to confuse here. i think it should be obvious why conservatives feel they are the victim, yet i dont believe the mainstream liberal community here is the one to blame
hopefully that answer will satisfy you
@Anonymous hey check this out:
ok here’s you- “i actually did address one of your point, the part where you said why repubs here claim to be the victim. after seeing the laundry list you decided you lost the point and asked why i didn’t address the other point.”
here’s the original question I posed:- “Why exactly does every Republican that comes onto this thread immediately start kicking and screaming and blaming what happened on some ubiquitous “liberal” presence that is ever vigilent in oppressing the measly conservative voice on campus?”
Notice how your answer doesn’t address my question correctly? I ignored your laundry list bc it was irrelevant to the conversation. I specifically said Republicans are whining that it was the scary liberals who were responsible for what happened. I never made a blanket statement addressing anything outside of what happened last night.
You didn’t address the question until the post I am replying to, where you make the point that you don’t think it was the larger liberal population that was responsible.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend that you just don’t read carefully.
@Brad Green Two points. The SPLC has an extremely strong liberal bias. Their purpose as an organization is to make up facts that make conservative look bad. That is all they do. When you research their claims you would find this to be the case.
Now, I am a student at UNC, and we had Ashcroft over here a little while ago, and although the students didnt rush the stage (there were too many armed guards) a large group did walk out and others did their best to further interrupt the presentation.
I have two problems with this. First, they arent just wasting their own time by protesting, they are wasting my time by not letting me hear the speaker who was invited to visit. This is exceedingly annoying.
Secondly, I dont care who you are, or who is speaking, when you go to a presentation such as this, your attendence is an implied agreement that you would like to listen to the speaker, and that you will not interrupt. Go protest outside (as they did here in addition to inside) and I dont care. You just make yourself, and your group, look like idiots when you are rude to your invited guests (especially if the guest is John Ashcroft and he makes you look like fools anyways).
Those are my thoughts.
@David I am conservative republican who is planning on applying to Columbia early decision, and I must say, I am very disappointed at the actions of these students. If the liberal students (who greatly outnumber the conservative students) behave this way towards conservatives, then maybe I shouldn’t apply. I want a safe, intellectual institution to be educated at, not a college that contains students who are this radical. I feel that this makes for a poor learning enviroment, especially for conservative students. In America we have the right to believe what we want to, why should we be attacked for our belief system. Maybe I am wrong about all of this, perhaps the students aren’t always negative towards conservatives, could someone please clarify? If what I am saying is true, then perhaps I will look elsewhere. Thank you.
@think Lets get a couple of things stratight:
-The minutemen DO NOT present a conservative opinion on the debate on illegal immigration.
-THE MINUTEMAN DO publicly encourage their members to take arms to men and women crossing the border. THIS MEANS SHOOTING THEM AND LEAVING THEM TO DIE IN THE DESERT LIKE ANIMALS. [I realize that as a Columbia student it is difficult for many of you to set aside thoughts of your brilliance and think of others, but consider the imagry associated with that statement, and imagine how you would feel if it was a member of your family that lay on the ground.)
So they’re murderers. That’s bad. Oh, but, wait, they ARE racist neo-nazis too. Double wammy. Case in point, on the minuteman website there is a picture of a pleasant, smiling, 65 year old woman. Below her photograph is a caption describing how this proud patriot has taken an AK-47 to people crossing the border to defend her country. That same caption describes this woman’s sparkling blue eyes, as they denounce the fact that the United States has lost its “whiteness,” its purity, if you will.
So my next quesiton is what the fuck is wrong with the people posting on this shit? Some of you are blatantly racist. That’s obvious. That I can contend with. But how can others defend this man’s right to speak on our campus. Free speech applies to a person’s right to an idea, and to publicly state that idea. THIS MAN, HOWEVER, IS NOT TALKING ABOUT AN IDEA. He’s promoting a call of arms to violence. HE IS A MURDERER THAT ACTIVELY ASSOCIATES WITH OTHER NEO-NAZIS MURDERERS. And yet he should be allowed to state these thoughts as if they were respectable, legitimate opinions to hold, simply because the group he is targeting isn’t apart of your periphery?
Oh and those “righteous” protestors. Righteous my ass. If you were Jewish would you allow Nazis to speak and discuss the planned elimination of all Jews? If you were black would you allow the KKK to speak about the planned murder of everyone in your community? Where is your sense of human compassion. This man wants to kill members of the Mexican population he believes is destroying the identity of white America. At what point do you not understand that this is not free speech, this is hate speech.
Oh, but what about this man’s rights? OH, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE MEN AND WOMEN THIS MAN HAS MURDERED VIA HIS ORGANIZATION? Are they not on your Columbia radar? Do protestors not deserve to speak on their behalf? Do they not deserve to say to him: your opinion is not valid, it’s violence, and as such can not be tolerated? Guess not.
@Until someone provides some evidence for any of these oft touted assertions, you’re not going to get anywhere. Provide some evidence for any of what you’re saying, and you might get an audience. Unsupported blather and hurling slurs in lieu of an actual argument aren’t going to get you anywhere.
@writing things in caps doesn’t make them facts.
i guess that doesn’t matter for you though
bigot
@SanJoseStateAlumnus Thank you liberal community in and around Columbia University. You are our greatest allies. The members of Save Our State, the California Coalition for Immigration Reform, the Campo Minutemen, and the Fire Coalition appreciate your efforts.
That video is currently being distributed/posted/advertised all over the internet. We haven’t had material that was that good since the locals in Maywood, California tore down Old Glory and raised the Mexican national flag over the local post office in August. Your actions are a far better advertisement and recruiting tool for us than anything we could muster on our own.
We appreciate your efforts to demonstrate the worth, values and caliber of persons who most vehemently oppose us. Again, thanks for your help.
@interesting What does it take to stop xenophobia in this country? Or to at least bring the issue of amnesty to forefront of the agenda? In the meantime thousands are dying on the border and families are being ripped apart. I’m ashamed to be an American when I see rascists hold moral values above other people, hurt innocent people, and preach their fascist words and get away with it. The time and place to fight injustice is now. Although it is regrettable that the students who protested the event on stage were attacked, sometimes things like this have to happen so that people see what these rascist pigs are capable of.
@Actually Its your inability to actually discuss the issue on its merits and instead trying to pigeonhole those who disagree with you as racists and fascists when if you actually listen to the core of the argument it has nothing to do with either.
Its amazing that you expect to gain ground in your struggle when you approach the issue in the way you do. Perhaps a bit of rational reflection is in order. It’s called maturity. Grasp it.
@Pigeonhole is only a word in oppressed-people language. Discuss the issue on its merits? The Minutemen break the law and subvert the rule of the state. That’s not “enlightened debate”, that’s intimidation and militia rule.
@Incorrect. The Minutemen do not “break the law”. They help enforce the existing laws that the federal governement doesn’t want to. Face it. Your argument is garbage. If the MM Project had been violating laws left and right or killing illegals, they’d have been decimated by lawsuits or broken up by a prosecutor using the RICO statute.
You may not like Gilchrist and his views, but his organization is entirely legitimate and above board. Surely you can come up with arguments that don’t involve slander.
@Pssht Okay, then:
So you’re saying they don’t engage in harassment, or what? Attacking those without legal standing is right up there with punching babies. Illegal immigrants can’t exactly bring suit against you, why don’t you rob their houses? Shove them in the street? Behaving this way toward anybody is inhuman.
The Minutemen could easily devote the absurd amount of resources at their disposal to improving the Border Patrol, an organization with such “forgotten” benefits as oversight. I can’t imagine what would make me so full of vitriol toward others that I felt the need to go south and prevent them from finding a better life… don’t these guys have jobs and families? Or are they too busy chasing immigrants?
@Umm.. Was there an actual argument in that post? I don’t exactly see how you said a single thing that refutes poster #457. Are you suggesting they rob houses or push people in the street? Clearly you can’t be suggesting that. In that case, what’s the basis for your argument of inhumanity? It’s kind of like saying… see that guy over there? He took a cookie off of that plate and ate it. Isn’t cookie eating like murder? That guy is clearly a murderer!
@Read it “intimidation and harassment”
@human rights interest groups certainly have standing if they wanted to bring up cases for illegal immigrants…
i’m guessing returned illegals also would
monitoring and reporting incoming illegals isn’t ‘harrasment’
@"Harrassment"? That’s an interesting choice of terms for people stopping others who are trying to violate the nation’s immigration laws. By that logic, cops stopping a rapist from penetrating a woman are “harassing” him as well.
The MM are standing up for laws that already exist, whether you find those laws unpalatable or inconvenient. Marvin Stewart and Jim Gilchrist don’t shriek at illegals. They don’t punch anchor babies. They patrol the border and travel the country making speeches on behalf of immigration enforcement. There’s nothing vitriolic about that.
If illegals want a better life, they have two choices:
1. Apply for American residence legally.
2. Fix their own countries.
It is not possible or reasonable for the U.S. to accept every person who wants to come here. We’d be overloaded in 3 months if they did, and the quality of life we all enjoy would be gone and replaced with exactly that which people in Mexico and Central America recognize at home.
@Not quite No, because the police are a forced sanctioned by the people and the government, and with oversight. Please try not to answer one sentence and ignore the rest… Surely you’ll agree that it’s better to have law and order than vigilanteism, right? Then why support vigilantes who undermine the rule of law?
There aren’t very many good answers.
@where is the vigilantism? if you’re surveilling from people’s private property who agree to have you there an then call the police on trespassing illegals there is nothign vigilante about that.
you’re grasping at straws bigot
@Reply to John Checked out all of your links John. 1. Not sure what you’re referring to w/ the Google link b/c the chappelhill indymedia doesn’t work. 2. The Albinocrow site has an interview with a militia leader who calls the minutemen too “politically correct” and polite–because they’re nonviolent.
3. Highlandcenter link has nothing about the Minutemen being either racist or using violence, only puncturing water tanks (which I in no way condone, it just doesn’t prove racism).
4. San Diego indymedia has a story where Gilchrist says that shootings of Mexicans were by “rogue minutemen” who he does not support.
5. Other people’s links to SPLC and Orcinus describes racists as “infiltrating” the Minutemen but having to keep quiet about it, especially around Gilchrist who seems avowadly anti-racist.
I don’t agree anti-immigration politics, I’d like to see an a guest-worker program along with a more secure border. But Gilchrist seems like a legitimate part of the immigration debate (even though he happens to disagree with you–thats what ‘debate’ means).
@Buh? Most sources, aside from Bwog seems to be reporting that the protestors “attacked” the MinuteMan. What’s going on? There’s a difference between running up on stage and unfurling a banner and outright attacking someone. What’s the real story, when can we get clearer footage?
@confused.... I was a protestor. The protestors did not attack anyone. I have yet to hear of any college republicans or minutemen supporters with bumps, bruises, and cuts…. but I HAVE seen various protestors with clear marks on them from being attacked. It’s a shame it played out the way it did…. only because it seems everyone thinks WE were violent not THEM.
@Ulrike Meinhof I’m quite surprised and proud of the Columbia stage occupiers. A good mixture of protest and art. And the best way to get their point across in face of such vapid stupidity.
@Yeah Googly needs to get over his issues with Arabic or just say what he really wants to say from the first post. It’s a language, tool. Arabic was on many banners of these groups before; why don’t you ASK them why they use it. It has nothing to do with Minute Men being connected to Zionism. Uitilizing the Arabic language = OMG statement on Zionism no matter what the context? Jesus some people.
@Googly Actually, if you had read any of what I wrote, you would see that is what I was attempting to ask: why is Arabic written on that banner?
I was also saying that it seems like a needless politicized act that draws attention away from the purported message of the banner.
And to #417 – When I was saying that invoking such sentiments would be absurd, that goes accross the board to any group or faction that attempts to conflate issues by referencing other popular controversial matters.
@In Lerner now And there’s a Spec interveiw on the topic going on right next to me.
How coincidental.
@yo! judging by all these posts in support of the minuteman the membership of the Columbia Conservatives is about to experience some exponential growth
@hello did anybody just see the oreilly factor and the bwog meet about say 15 posts up? should existence self destruct or something?
@mariana Thank you so much for the second, third, fourth-hand synopsis of what THE MINUTEMAN WOULD HAVE SAID. Of course, if he’d gotten to say it himself, he’d have been able to exercise his First Amendment right to speech, but, having you, Johah and the rest of the THUGS who shouted him down to protect us, we have all been spared the necessity to judge and think for ourselves.ma
@Not Racists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Minuteman_Project_Inc.
Seems like Skinheads actually show up to PROTEST THE MINUTEMEN, calling them “sellouts”.
@SanJoseStateAlumnus Lord, am I glad I didn’t attend your institution. I would be mortified. Where was the rational discourse? That was nothing but a pack of tantruming children who threw a fit when they heard something they didn’t like.
It’s interesting to see how The Left never seems to learn. You can’t possibly imagine that this video, which will doubtlessly circulate around the internet, is going to be a valuable tool in the fight to gain ground for people illegally in this country, do you? Middle America will see a mob. Then they’ll see the hordes of young brown faces pumping their fists in the air and defiantly chanting in Spanish. That kind of thing wins you about as many converts as the marches back in April featuring tens of thousands of anchor babies, illegals, and their supporters trotting around U.S. cities waving Mexican and El Salvadorean flags.
Does Columbia have any classes in Marketing or Public Relations? I think the unruly masses in the audience last night should consider enrolling in them.
Anyway, those of us fighting illegal immigration on the other side of the country appreciate your help. Thanks for showing what an intolerant mob our organized opposition is.
@lucky for you …you wouldn’t have gotten in anyway.
@neither you w/out affirmative action
@SanJoseStateAlumnus After seeing that video, why would I have wanted to?
@i'm sure that’s what a lot of non liberal columbia students are asking themselves right now
by the way. wikipedia is shutting up all of the nutcases accusations about the minutemen
@Wikipedia isn’t a real source (especially during a vitriolic Internet debate on the subject), this thread is full of the same eight trolls, and is too long to follow. Everyone (on both sides, here) pack up your terrible, uninformed arguments and go home.
@actually, p.s. I’m really frustrated with people posting on here from either side who weren’t at the event. If you don’t really know exactly what happened, please don’t speculate – why don’t you fucking ask someone. The number of people developing opinions about an event they didn’t even witness is ridiculous and very annoying for those that were there.
@i don't care what they try saying but i saw chicano caucus members i know well. and a bunch fo them. up on stage
its going to be hard for me to ever again take that group seriously when politics of any sort comes up
which is a shame
@alumness it seems like the iso is behind much of the agitation. this was always the case…some things never change. on the one hand the iso is very passionate and organised, but on the other hand, they tend to have the nefarious effect of pushing away liberals who aren’t “revolutionary socialists” into apathy, as they infiltrate much of the left leaning political student groups on campus, and few want to be associated with them. would be cool if some liberal groups on campus publicly demonstrated against the tactics displayed-something of a show of support for freedom of speech. Would be pretty powerful, engage a lot of students who apparently are sympathetic to that view, regardless of stance. Activism shouldn’t be left to radicals, and it is the entire Left that suffers from what happened last night.
@agree we need to make sure the left repudiates yesterday’s actions
i personally know the dems have already done so privately and are planning on doing so publicly
@To Googly “Now if they are trying to say that the Minuteman issue is tied into the Zionist aggressors and Apartheid Rascists in Palestine, or the Bush Crusade of Injustice in Iraq – I dont belive i even need to spell out how absurd that is.”
Why is that absurd? Right-wingers constantly (if ridiculously) invoke the War on Terror as an excuse for why we need a gigantic fucking border wall between the US and Mexico. You know, al-Qaeda is going to infiltrate us from their cells in Mexico or whatever.
Also, it’s hard not to see the ideological connections, they way that racist dehumanization is used to justify both bombing the shit out of the Middle East and vicious anti-immigrant policies that lead to hundreds of deaths at the border each year, lives destroyed, etc.
But in any case, you seem not to understand that there are many Arabic speaking immigrants in this country, and they have faced some pretty intense harassment since 9/11. In fact, the immigrant rights movement as a whole needs to do a better job reaching out to those immigrants that have been most victimized by the War on Terror: people from the Middle East, North Africa, and South Asia.
@you act like it’s a bunch of hooey that unsavory, potentially anti-American elements could infiltrate across America’s largely unguarded borders. In an age of increased global terrorism though, it makes at least some sense to know who is in the country and when. That’s why, to me at least, a guest worker program seems perhaps the best option – regulate it as little as possible, let the CA growers still have access to the labor they need to produce their crops, but keep track of who’s in the country and for how long, as we do for everyone else who visits. Or does that view make me a crazy fascist?
@but that's still a restriction on migration! nobody is illegal! open borders, everywhere, anytime, forever!
we need to also build land bridges from china, africa and india to the US becuase right now only the mexicans are priveleged
@Thank you though I’d add that the penguins in Antarctica shouldn’t be left out.
@Anonymous I don’t believe Nancy Pelosi is a reputable source. I don’t believe christian science monitor is a reputable source.
I don’t believe ALL illegal immigrants are criminals and drug dealers, but some are.
I don’t believe Bush or his administration is out to destroy anyone.
All republicans are not evil. All democrats are not evil.
I have found no evidence of crimes commited by or on behalf of the minuteman project. And no one has provided any evidence here, just insults and slurs.
I went to the event to learn more about both sides. The only thing I learned was that binary thinking on campus is a plague and that the level of discourse I was hoping to experience at Columbia is a pipedream.
@John For the umpteenth time, scroll up the thread for evidence and sources. People are posting all over the place, but it’s there.
And to those of you who are using public opinion as a determinant of what is right and wrong by the law, I would like to point out that determining law by unmediated public opinion has time and again proven disastrous. The public is not well enough informed, as this thread generated by some of the most educated people in America easily proves. It’s really irrelevant to ‘what is right’ whether or not there is majority support for the Minutemen.
410, do you have any idea what you’re saying? “Hate breeds hate?” “Yes I do wanna fk up [etc.]” I’m glad your confessed knowledge goes to such good use.
@compltely wrong none of the sourcess have posted anything substantive. in fact there has been no reliable evidence so far and you hate to admit it. even the wiki entry shows your grasping
and we’re not saying public opinion is teh end all determinant. however in a democracy when talkign about the breaking of a law, public opinion is important, especially if you accuse the minutemen of being a group completely out of the mainstream of america
@John I would like to back the previous poster on Wiki: right now, the page isn’t edit-locked to registered Wikipedians only. That means anyone could be tampering with it right now. Not a valuable source…
I have not accused the Minutemen of being out of the mainstream, but rather of being out of the right: this is to say, their actions are doing no majority any good, whether or not that is the cherished opinion of a majority.
@disappointed its unfortunate that both the liberals and conservatives on campus are playing into the stereotypes most people have of them. on the one hand, the liberals went too far by rushing the stage and are just perpetuating the stereotype of being crazy intolerant-of-anything-not-‘liberal’ elitists. but on the other hand, i think the college republicans has been going farther and farther in the wrong direction this year. ashcroft, mccain, those were respectable leaders who represent the mainstream of the republican party. the repubs have frequently partnered with other groups on issues like the genocide in darfur and it went a long way to show that they’re not necessarily the intolerant in-support-of-oppression bigots that most people (read: liberals) make them out to be. but now they just play into that. an anti-global warming party?? global warming has nothing to do with partisan politics, global warming is a fact that has been PROVEN in scientific studies time and time and time again. we’re not debating whether or not it exists anymore. and having a party about it is sad and idiotic. and the minutemen? the fact that only about 15 people in the entire audience last night were there in support of them should be evidence enough that the minutemen do not represent mainstream republican views. you want to bring in a politician or expert on immigrant laws, fine. but bringing in a vigilante group tied to neo-nazis who hunt humans is ridiculous.
the campus liberals need to stop being babies, try to engage in intellectual debate with others and seriously recognize how incompatible with their whole message it is to be intolerant of conservatives.
and the campus republicans need to restore their image as reasonable and thoughtful people and not hate-mongering idiots, which is the way they have been looking these days.
@you're such an uppity asshole. if you disagree w/an republican view its hate mongering? the majority of americans support a wall and crackdowns on immigration. you’re teh bigoted unlawful minority. as for you’re bs claims about the event. yeah an event on a columbia campus indicates nationwide support. america dissagrees w/you jerkface http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0505/p02s02-uspo.html they support tougher border measures. adn there were around 200 students in the audience and i can guarantee at least 120 were quiet and listening. just because supporterss were making animals of themsevles by jumping up or screaming doesn’t indicate a lack of support. your infantile arguments are distrubingly moronic and have no factual basis besides your own deluded false anecdotes
and don’t talk about global warming unless you’re a giss research and even then shut up..otherwise there’s legitimate skepticism, ranging from lindzen to multiple harvard physicists to prominent coloradan climatologists
so shut youre ‘lets blame everyone and come out as holier than thou’ attitude and admit the bumrush was a disgrace period.
if you hate republicans do that on your own time jerk.
@actually Maybe there were more than 100 people in the audience being quiet, but that does not mean there were that many people there in support of the speakers. The College Republicans had 15 guests from outside Columbia, presumably staunch Gilchrist supporters. The College Republicans themselves and other conservative students might have made up another 30. I can’t see there being more than 50 people in the room that supported the speakers.
As for the others sitting quietly: there were TONS of journalists in the room, who were presumably not protesting, there were also administrators and faculty members who were understandably quiet, and there were also students who, I believe, were legitimately there to hear what the crazy man had to say. And they were also quiet/confused to be caught in the midst of this growing, very vocal dissent.
@i was at the event and helped run it. there were more than 30 cr’s easily. not all of them were in the first rsvp section
and the point the poster was trying to make still holds. nothing yet has suggested the minutemen’s views are out of the mainstream despite attempts to take a few of their members and try to do the switch and bait w/their individual racist views and the whole organizations, which isn’t racist
he guy is an idiot for suggesting that sticter immigration policy is out of the mainstream for america
@oh noes minorities disagree w/the establishment minority political view!!!!!
they’re self hating token mchimpybushhitlersstaypuffmans
@david duke and robert byrd are democrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
byrd even used teh n word on cable tv a couple years ago
democrats were the racists durning teh civil right era.
they’re racists and need to be handled!
@John Oh right, the irony:
So, during the war with Algeria, France sent many young labourers over the sea to fight. Meanwhile, the French government had to bring in Algerians to fill those soldiers’ posts. Many manufactured munitions to help the French bombard their brothers. Some sent back money to bring in more Algerians. Some sent back money to underwrite the FLA—the army France was fighting.
The Minutemen could work full-time instead of persecuting migrants…
And the migrants are subsidising cheap agricultural product in America which floods their own markets back home.
Just something to think about.
@for the love... this discussion is the same five people posting over and over again. stop the madness, please.
@the guys who were posting until 5am are ceertainly not the ones who are posting now.
@Penis Envy? Anyone else think that this ridiculous overreaction is a result of the fact that left-wing groups on campus – in spite of having several times the College Republicans’ budget and membership base – couldn’t even dream of putting on as many events or bringing to campus as many high profile speakers in 2 years what Kulawik has planned in 6 months.
@John 107, said inscription on the Statue of Liberty…is not actually on the Statue of Liberty. And if it had been, the Frenchies wouldn’t have been following their own advice. And, whatever Lazarus said, we have a storied past of ignoring her advice.
188, for one, the mass of garbage is there because anyone with half a brain knows that carring deadweight (empty containers for provisions) is just a quicker way to die in the desert. If we controlled the border better or just let in those Mexicans who are fleeing, you wouldn’t have to deal with trash. While we’re talking about fresh kills, though, why don’t we talk about the sources I posted in #43: would you prefer canteens in your back yard, or cadavers?
For two, if these communities were legalised, it would be much easier to keep tabs on them and prevent things like your ‘rape tree’ from appearing.
For three, many Germans who were Jews helped out the Nazis and (to be less inflammatory) many French who were Algerians policed and harrassed (and still police and harrass) Algerians in France. While I’m not sure I beleive your assertion that there are Hispanic Minutemen, it doesn’t really support your point either way.
239, please refer back to 43—there seems to be blood on Minuteman hands, and there certainly are dead bodies.
361, ‘any other Minuteman’ seems to be a rather broad assertion. And shooting people isn’t, to reiterate, the only way to kill them.
Also, please refer upwards into the post for economic arguments as to why supporting open borders doesn’t actually hurt Americans (apart from the irony I will address at the end of this).
To recap other arguments and add my own short word (you see a longer one at the end of the Santorum post), temporary-pass migrant workers are limited to agriculture and other jobs Americans won’t do, as, effectively, are illegal immigrants who for the most part don’t speak English. The result is that food prices are driven down, which gives America some of the lowest food price levels in the industrialized world. This is a significant aid to the lower and middle classes in America, who won’t actually take the jobs that migrants take.
To illustrate, a friend of mine in California lives next to a pear orchard full of rotting pears: the migrant workflow dropped precipitously this year, and the orchard’s owner can’t find any home-state pickers. I would bet that California pear prices have shot up…
As to social services and education, it can’t be repeated often enough that temps and illegals don’t use them much because they have either no families or no papers. Legal immigrants don’t use them as much because they are admitted on criteria that would give insurance companies wet dreams.
I believe, regardless of its other policies, that the Bush Administration is playing fairly sophisiticated Realpolitic with an eye towards immigration. The Minutemen are just interfering—that is what makes them vigilantes.
@Anonymous you pro-immigration activists are the puppets of the rightwing overclass. They are using you to flood the labor supply with immigrants and drive down the wages of American citizens.
YOU ARE ALL TRAITORS!
@ANONYMOUS I decided to provide some pictures of the Minutemen speakers and attendees at events. You can see White Supremacy at work. You can also see that they are all Republican.
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00688.JPG
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00666.JPG
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00665.JPG
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00651.JPG
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00586_1.jpg
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00572_1.jpg
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00578_1.jpg
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00568_1.jpg
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00587.jpg
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/DSC00567.jpg
http://www.minutemanproject.com/gallery/images/Leimert%20Park%20056.jpg
If you guys want any more pictures like these to put on posters at you rallies to show how White Supremecist and Republican they are, they can all be found on their official website.
@Anonymous I am sorry I did not know that republicans could be pointed identified by what they look like
@mariana SILLY, of course you can tell the Young Republicans by sight. They were the neat, clean, attentive people, sitting quietly, waiting to hear the speaker so they could DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES.ma
@Oooh Yeah, like a non-white racist is a novel concept? So what if they have minority spokesman? What exactly is your point?
@wow nearly 400 comments…
@ANON From the Minuteman Project Website Top Bar:
“MMP has no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from, separatists, racists, or supremacy groups.”
If any of you actually took the time to research it, instead of just following whatever Kerry and Kennedy say, you would realize that 2 of the Minutemen’s main individual supporters are black and hispanic.
@Anonymous wow 2 out of their 500 are people of color! I’m impressed.
And guess what? They use that as an arguement and use the hispanic guy as their spokeman. If he wouldn’t be their spokesman, by now some other member would have shot him already while trying to “protect” the border.
Bravo Bwog for the coverage!
@ron ha ha–they got what they deserve
@ROBOTS are the answer: first, we develop personal assistant and servant robots that can cut the grass and cook and do the heavy lifting and help out the man with the van. this will alleviate the need for low-wage low-skill workers (eg Mexicans).. second, we build an army of killer robot patrols (like from Terminator 2) and put them on the US Mexican border
@Anonymous Ironically, these are the same people that insist that the conflicts of the world can be solved by talk and diplomacy!!
George Bush is a war-monger for using force in the Middle East, yet what do these people do, the first time they encounter someone they disagree with? Do they talk? Dialogue? Peacefully settle disputes? Hell no! That’s for losers. Rush the stage and start throwing punches.
Makes you wonder if people will ever learn.
@mark Freedom of speach, but only for liberals!!!! So much for the 1st amendment!!!
The guys that pulled this stunt are the Facists. How about a debate without the shouting? Is this too much to ask for?
@yes that’s very true — but it’s no reason to stoop to their level
@yeah but flyers, posters, letters, and op-ed pieces all count — unfortunately, the protesters last night completely destroyed all the good that had done with their infantile actions
@Wow How embarrassing for alma mater to be associated with the pathetic intellectually lazy protesters who, unable to form a rational argument against the minutemen, can only “fight back” by physical means, the prevention of free speech, and the casting of slurs. Great job Columbians, great job. I’m sure this will do wonders for the capital campaign.
@Yeah If any of the potential donors have half a mind, they will be impressed with a student body that knows when to stand up for their morals.
Unable to form a rational argument… yeah, okay. Flyers, posters, letters to the administration and op-ed columns don’t count, I guess? Think before you speak.
@yeah physical attacks. wooooooooooooooooooooooo
how bout all conservatives attack baby killing liberals?
and all liberals attack innocent executing death penalty supporting conservatives?
you’re world is f’ed up
think before you open your mouthhole vermin
@HEY EVERYBODY i have gingivitis
@one more http://redstate.com/blogs/victor_cocchia/2006/oct/05/minuteman_founder_attacked_at_columbia_university
though this appears to be a diary
@more media links http://powerlineblog.com/archives/015459.php
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/458736p-385995c.html
http://lonestartimes.com/2006/10/05/how-not-to-persuade-your-fellow-new-yorkers/
@aclu what gives TWRTS the right to decide “The Minutemen are not a legitimate voice”?
@Jim Easton Video of the female protestor being kicked in the head by the racists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qda_ONunsps
@...yeah Here are just some links that may be of interest… specifically whoever wanted something linking the minutemen to hate crimes and white suprematist groups….
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13
http://www.splcenter.org/center/splcreport/article.jsp?aid=150
The above links connect the Minutemen to the National Alliance…. for more info on them…. go here http://www.natall.com/
@Chris That was funny, the crowd seemed to be enjoying themselves by the look of the bwog videos. I now assume that the illegal immigrants in my country are either more disciplined or less politically motivated as we have nothing on par with that happening here.
P.S That Mr Gilchrist really irritates me. Him and some other of the minutemen hierachy just seemed to be out for “brown-skin colours” more than anything.
@rp what’s the record for most comments on a post bwog?
@and, finally... at 5:22 am, the thread is quiet.
Good night, Columbia. Good night, moon.
@That is IF they are making a statement. I’ve seen that before on T-shirts, Bwog even had a picture of this skinny socialist guy wearing a shirt with english spanish and arabic. Why don’t you answer your question, what statement do you think they are making if in fact it is a statement? What statement could they be making just by using arabic?
@Googly By arbitrarily claiming solidarity with ‘Arabic’, that becomes a very silly and empty gesture.
Now if they are trying to say that the Minuteman issue is tied into the Zionist aggressors and Apartheid Rascists in Palestine, or the Bush Crusade of Injustice in Iraq – I dont belive i even need to spell out how absurd that is.
Unless I am missing a good reason for there to be a need to have Arabic on that sign, if not to insinuate that Minutemen are an integral part of the Evil Zionists’ plot.
@What the hell? Man, Arabic is a LANGUAGE. It’s not automatically politicized. Shut up.
@Googly Except that when it is put on a highly public protest banner, it becomes politicized.
It is not as if the majority of people needed it to be written in Arabic to understand what the baner said. There was deliberate polticized choice behind the usage of Arabic on that sign, and for which I find highly inappropriate.
If they wanted it to be universal, then stick 10 or 50 more lnaguages on that banner.
@yeah right idiot. i’m sure w/shoebat coming next week and answer out in full force the choice of arabic as the only the only other language was coincidental
@Anonymous will there be more footage? i just saw the video and it didn’t look as crazy as i expected. i guess with all the talk of how violent it was, i was expecting something big. people should bring more video cams to these events.
@Anonymous First of all, Gilchrist or any other Minutemen have never once shot an illegal immigrant. They’re simply an extra set of eyes and ears for the border patrol. Comparing Gilchrist to a Nazi and calling him a fascist is pure ignorance. If he’d been allowed to speak, your opposing viewpoints would actually have some validity, but as it is this invited speaker was simply drowned out with slogans and a gross display of contempt for free speech. It’s shameful that people aren’t allowed to hear both sides of an argument and then decide for themselves. And I truly believe with open borders that we have more of this to look foward to. I also don’t think those who would shout down someone like Gilchrist represent the Democratic party. They certainly don’t represent me. It’s ironic that those who support open borders are actually doing the most damage to the poor and middle class of this nation. As an unlimited supply of cheap labor floods our country, wages are forced down and the burden of social costs rises, damaging both the poor (especially blacks) and the middle class. Those who support open borders are truly a corporation’s wet dream. You’re fighting for the same cause as President Bush, Dick Cheney and other globalists. Have any of you read the Senate bill s.2611? It was a dream bill for those seeking cheap labor and an utter nightmare for those tax payers who would have to bear the burden in social costs for a near-unlimited number of foreigners who would come here and need housing, medical care and schooling. Who will pay for this? The already overburdened middle class. I’m glad those who would shout down Jim Gilchrist already know so much that they can’t be educated any further. Again, I hope you don’t claim to speak for the Democratic party. In no way do I condone this shameful, hypocritical display.
@ohmy, columbia Look, while I sympathise with the fact that many Columbia students don’t agree with the Minutemen, I also think Columbia students should have the rhetorical cajones to rely on rational discourse to take down those they don’t agree with–verbally. I was at Columbia not so long ago, and while there were often protests outside the building where a controversial figure was speaking, it rarely resulted in physical violence. Please guys, right-wing pundits are all over this already.
@crazy republicans... I heard that the Spectator has video footage of Kulawik kicking one of the protesters in the head.
@hah yeah right. chris spent most of teh time confused as hell and walking around.
you can bet some of the students up there are going to be facing disciplinary action though
@????? Different languages on a banner is an “issue”? What issue is that? Spanish and arabic seem appropriate to put on that banner considering the topic.
@Googly Did I say anything about Spanish?
But last time I checked, Arabic isn’t widely spoken in Mexico nor in the states in which the Minutemen operate in.
I fail to see why Arabic is an appopriate language, given the topic is U.S. immigration policy on the Mexican Border, and the actions of the Minutemen.
Keep in mind, I would have even been confused by Chinese, Tagalog, or Portuguese, even though those are all languages of many legal and illegal immigrants.
But by using Arabic, what kind of statement are they trying to make?
@yes the banner was in english, spanish, arabic i think
@I think it was Arabic – idea of solidarity, no?
@Googly Regardless, I am still confused by its place on the banner.
It seems an inappropriate place and forum of solidarity – talk about mixing and conflating issues.
@Googly My question remains: What was with the Farsi on the protest banner?
(At least I think it was Farsi, I could be horribly wrong.)
@Anonymous i can’t believe i missed this to write a paper! it’s incredible! i would’ve loved to see what kind of protests would’ve occurred if pres. ahmadinejad had been here.
personally i’m conflicted about the role of “violent” protest. if it weren’t for revolutionaries, society would’ve never progressed to where we are today. on the other hand, i would like to hope that we have evolved so that war/revolutions won’t be necessary.
in my opinion, student groups at columbia have become hysterical and myopic to the point that an intelligent debate is impossible. every time any political speaker comes to cu, the hatemongerers on both the left and right swoop in and prevent others from engaging in real debate.
personally i despise the minuteman…i just wish that columbians could’ve confronted and exposed them through open debate. now each side will use the “riot” to accuse each other and no one will remember what the protest was about. it will only further the division in this country.
@Way to oversimplify it, tool. It’s about the methodology they’ve used.
@Anonymous So, “A Thousand Mogadishus” is OK, but someone who wants immigration law inforced is censored. What a shitty college you have there.
@Anonymous Perhaps you would be better off commenting on things you have insight on. Professor De Genova didn’t exactly get off “ok”, he suffered backlash from his peers as well as receiving countless calls for his firing/resignation; pair that with the death threats, I’m going to go ahead and say that he didn’t escape that one unscathed.
Disruption from a fringe group doesn’t speak for the rest of the University.
I think Columbia is pretty swell.
@JIGSAW I guess all you Columbia students had to go thru a lot to get into that university. Even had to have a minumun GPA in order to be considered. For all of those who are in favor of open borders and granting amnesty to illegals, how would you feel if your university enrolled twice the number of students it did right now? And how would you feel if these students got into your university with out the minimum GPA requirement? You would be pissed. Now you know how people like the minutemen feel.
Case closed!
@Anonymous The analogies are interesting. I might be tempted to agree with you if I could seriously consider the possibility of students persuing an inquisition of highschool gpa’s and threatening to shoot people that they believed to be of low academic merit.
@bob Come gather round people wherever you roam
And admit that
the waters around you have grown
And accept it that soon
you’ll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you is
worth saving
Then you’d better start swimming or
you’ll sink like a stone
For the times, they are a
changing
Come writers and critics who prophesize with
your pens
And keep your eyes open, the chance won’t
come again
And don’t speak too soon, the wheel’s
still in spin
And there’s no telling who that
it’s naming
Oh the loser will be later to win
For
the times, they are a changing
Come senators,
congressmen, please head the call
Don’t stand in the
doorway, don’t block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
will be her that has stalled
The battle outside ragging
will soon shake your windows
And rattle your hall
For
the times, they are a changing
Come mothers and
fathers all over this land
And don’t criticize what
you can’t understand
Your sons and your daughter are
beyond your command
Your old role is rapidly aging
Please get out of the new one if you can’t lend a hand
For the times they are a changing
The line, it is
drawn, the curse, it is cast
The slow one will later be
fast
And the present now will soon be the past
The order is rapidly fading
The first one now will later be
last
For the times, they are a changing
@also bob Well, that big dumb blonde
With her wheel in the gorge
And Turtle, that friend of theirs
With his checks all forged
And his cheeks in a chunk
With his cheese in the cash
They’re all gonna be there
At that million dollar bash
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
It’s that million dollar bash
Ev’rybody from right now
To over there and back
The louder they come
The harder they crack
Come now, sweet cream
Don’t forget to flash
We’re all gonna meet
At that million dollar bash
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
It’s that million dollar bash
Well, I took my counselor
Out to the barn
Silly Nelly was there
She told him a yarn
Then along came Jones
Emptied the trash
Ev’rybody went down
To that million dollar bash
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
It’s that million dollar bash
Well, I’m hittin’ it too hard
My stones won’t take
I get up in the mornin’
But it’s too early to wake
First it’s hello, goodbye
Then push and then crash
But we’re all gonna make it
At that million dollar bash
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
It’s that million dollar bash
Well, I looked at my watch
I looked at my wrist
Punched myself in the face
With my fist
I took my potatoes
Down to be mashed
Then I made it over
To that million dollar bash
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
Ooh, baby, ooh-ee
It’s that million dollar bash
@Anonymous I was just thinking, imagine if this had happened in Diane Murphy’s office a few weeks ago… funny mental image
@Sprinkles You know, the mini-riot tonight proved Missy Elliot was correct. Minuteman, Big Red can outlast ya.
And by Big Red, I mean…I don’t know.
@goodnight I’m going to bed, I’ve got to be up early so I can contribute something to society while earning money for it. And I’m eternally grateful to my immigrant ancestors who faced discrimination and horrible working conditions for every privilege that I enjoy today. And hope that someday a descendent of one of today’s immigrants will be in my position.
@ummm J Train = Julia Kite
@Anonymous Yes, as I admitted in #328. It’s good to be free.
@Anonymous Julia, did we have this much fun on CUCommunity?
@Anonymous Those were the days.
On that note, thank you and goodnight. Can’t wait to read tomorrow’s/today’s papers.
@Uh huh Julia Kite is a self-righteous know-it-all limousine liberal.
@but Julia Kite, if you will look her up on the Facebook, actually studies issues intrinsically related to this debate. So her know-it-all attitude is seriously more appropriate than those of many other commenters on this thread
@Anonymous Just as a general note, if anyone wants to read an interesting book about migrant workers, I’d highly recommend “Crossing Over” by Ruben Martinez. And I’m saying this as a reader, not as the bleeding-heart liberal I am.
@meh Because I’ve come to realize years ago that dialog is absolutely impossible with people not half as far gone as you.
@Jonah I’m really proud of all those that protested tonight, especially those that
Gilchrist and the Minutemen spout some pretty extreme BS about undocumented workers. A few key examples:
1) The Minutemen insist that undocumented workers live off social services paid for by citizens – actually undocumented immirants contribute far more in taxes and to the economy than they take in social services.
2) The Minutemen say that undocumented immigrants undercut “American” workers – in fact, immigrants, included or maybe I should say especially undocumented immigrants, have been a serious growth engine for the labor movement over the past two decades. SEIU and UNITE-HERE have been largely built around immigrant workers, many of them undocumented. Unions pull everyones wages up.
3) The Minutemen, and their Lou Dobbs style, far-right-populist-backers, claim that undocumented immigrants cost “Americans” jobs. In this case, the racists are just confusing immigrants with corporate executives. The Minutemen have never, as far as I know, protested outside the corporate offices of, say, Ford.
4) Catch Minutemen leaders at the right moment, and they’ll tell you that undocumented immigrants are potential terrorists, drug dealers, and sexual predators.
But no, they aren’t insane, paranoid racists. Not at all.
The thing is, Gilchrist doesn’t spit these lies in a vacume. The numbers don’t lie. 4,000 immigrants have died trying to cross into the US in the last ten years, almost 500 of those last year alone (actually these numbers are sort of meaningless, since they include only reported deaths on the US side of the border). Gilchrist and his proto-fascist organization are responsible for real racist violence – attacking immigrants, harassing day laborers, intimidating anyone who looks like they might be Latino – in the real world. This isn’t some abstract discussion, and Columbia students need to get their heads out of the clouds.
The Minutemen have plenty of access to the mainstream media. Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck, et all. Their voices aren’t in danger of being silenced. But by shutting down Gilchrist, these protestors hopefully gave confidence to some of the most oppressed people in our society. Undocumented immigrants don’t have media shills like the Minutemen do, so solidarity is pretty important.
By the way: it’s not just the US government’s economic policies (ie, NAFTA, CAFTA, or policies pushed through the World Bank and WTO) that have destabilized Latin America and created the context for mass immigration northward. It’s also the political policies, especially decades of support for brutal right-wing dictatorships throughout the hemisphere – the Duvaliers in Haiti, Trujillo in the DR, death squad regimes in Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, and now Colombia, etc, etc. Oh, not to mention hundreds of millions of dollars the US gave the terrorist Contras to fight the Sandinistas during the 1980s.
@GUMBY I would not contest any of what you said. The conversation just started with the benevolence of the US economic policy so a refutation of that was in order. It’s nice to know that others exist with a peception of the world which exceeds a few years.
@Lee Racism is a cliche. Whenever I hear someone or some group referred to as “racist,” I don’t think badly of the accused, but of the people who are leveling the accusation because they’re simply demonstrating that they don’t have a case.
An accusation of racism is an appeal to emotion. It says “You should disagree with this person because he or she is morally contemptable.” This sort of an argument is never logically valid in the first place, but it is useful against lesser minds.
What makes a racism charge especially pernicious is that it is also a trap. You can’t prove that you’re NOT a racist because you can’t prove a negative. It is easy to prove that something is true, all it takes is one case. But proving that something is NOT true takes an infinite number of cases.
In vampire lore one of the defenses against the undead is to throw seeds on the ground in front of the vampire. According to legend, the vampire will be forced to stop and count each and every seed, giving you ample chance to escape. This is what a charge of racism does, forces the victim to devote time and energy trying to disprove the accusation. This is what makes it a cheap shot and in my opinion an admission of defeat. In any debate deciding who is right is often difficult. Both sides may have strong arguments backed up by strong evidence. In other cases it is very easy. When one side is so unsure of their position that they resort to ad hominem attacks, you can be pretty certain that they’re in the wrong.
Are the minutemen racists? Maybe, maybe not. Either way it really doesn’t matter because whether one is a racist has nothing to do with whether one is right. The positions of the minutemen must stand and fall based upon the merit of their arguments, not the character attacks of their opponents.
@Sprinkles VAMPIRE OCD!!!
I like.
@Anonymous let’s not forget that it looks like Scott started the whole fracas. I mean it was already a regular block party on stage before he started getting grabby, but… can we say escalation?
@yeah right apologist bypassing security and bumrushign a stage and then stealing property isn’t escalating it
@Anonymous I didn’t say they were in the right by jumping the stage and disrupting a speech. It is factual that it was non-violent prior to that point. You can kick out people occupying a stage, breaking up a rumble is a horse of another color.
Is apologist the new buzzword of the night?
@yeah but stealing shit isn’t the same animal
@Anonymous Who are you? Why do you know everyone’s name? Why do you keep implicating this Scott person? Were you even there?
@Anonymous Kulawik and Scott are easy to pick out in the video. Scott gives his name in the end of the posted video and you can see him towards the beginning of the video walking over from the side of the stage and start grabbing the poster and tussling. Then you can see Chris walk over and start doing the same thing. The video prior to that momment only shows a pretty ridiculous overly fun looking protest. After that all hell breaks loose. Just watch the video.
That’s a lot of questions.
@Anonymous Uhmm I was sitting in the front section near your “scott” guy and I do not see him on the stage in the video. There was a guy with gilchrist who also had a black shirt and pants on that you maybe confusing for “scott”.
It seems odd to me that you are sure that “Scott” and Kulawik started the fist throwing.
Were you even there or are you going on the one video that is posted everywhere?
I was there and there were 3 professional video cameras on and recording. I would prefer if none of us jumped to the who started it debate based on the crappy video that is posted everywhere.
@Anonymous First of all… I am doing the best possible speculating I am able to do.
2. I picked out Scott bc of the probability of there being more than one person on stage wearing a V neck with a silver pen in it (not “pants” as you wrote), and I think even given the video quality is pretty obviously him. And Kulawik is pretty hard to miss, you can also tell by the hair, age, suit, and face.
3. I never said they started punching anyone. I said that they escalated a situation by becoming confrontational and trying to take the banners away from the people on stage.
Keep in mind I think it was a pretty bad display on the protestors’ part to even begin supposedly stealing, throwing punches, etc. There were much better ways of handling the situation on everyone’s part.
Sorry for speculating. Sue me. Unless you’re public security, who cares who kicked who in the head, the whole event was a pretty huge disaster for everyone involved.
@don't mess with J Train. I dunno who the fuck he is, but he’s a Train for christsakes. Be careful.
@Anonymous I’ll admit it: My name is Julia Kite. How ’bout that cancelled Yankees game?
@abc There was a better video of this on univision…
@Anonymous That’s it…I am done. I thought one of you could provide some EVIDENCE that the minuteman project had “blood on their hands” but all I can find are insults and organization statements. I can get that crap from CNN and FOX. I thought this was Columbia. where is the EVIDENCE?
I am going to bed…
@Anonymous “Debating” on the internet 101:
Person 1: You’re a bigot!
Person 2: No, you’re a bigot!
Repeat.
Ad infinitum.
@you forgot person 1: arod is gay
person 2: 1918
@Sprinkles It took me a long time to figure out what that meant. I now feel really un-American.
@you have to admit it makes for good entertainment.
jsut grab a tub of popcorn and watch the sparks fly
@like "chicao" J Train, nice. except throw in few more requisite misspellings.
@im out just to set things straight though. i ‘m a lurker here..but i believe we shoudl build a wall and might need to deport most illegals. i dont think that inherently makes me racist
i can’t vouch for the minutemen though
@Anonymous 301st. Damn.
@Anonymous 300th POST INTERMISSION!
MTV makes me wanna smoke crack
Fall out of the window and I’m never comin’ back
MTV makes me wanna get high
Can’t get a ride no matter how I try
And everything’s perfect
And everything’s bright
And everyone’s perky
And everyone’s uptight
I love those videos
I watch them all day
(What’s the problem?)
Uh… I dunno just stop the tape…
Hey alright, MTV, whoa, makes me want to smoke crack
Fly out the window and I’m never coming back
MTV makes me want to get high as a moon
Like a rubber balloon
Ah get that squeegee!
Everything’s wonderful
Everything’s grand
Everything’s swinging
All across the land, you know it!
Bust out the biscuits
Strike up the band
Play those videos
Every woman and man
‘Cause MTV, whoa
Makes me want to smoke crack
Hey, fly out the window
And I’m never coming back
Oh MTV makes me want to get hiiigh as a kite
Gettin’ all uptight
Take it!
[piano solo]
Ah yea
Fake it ’til you make it!
Right about now
Steppin’ into a cold-ass fashion
Ah yea, weed-whack that thing!
I work down at the video store
Making some change
With a sparkle in my step
And a smile on my face
Condominiums rising above
And those videos are better than love
Yeah! MTV… One
MTV, check!
MTV makes me want to smoke crack!
—Beck
@disappointed You know what makes ME ashamed to be a Columbian? The fact that there are people at this school who would call other students ‘animals’ like our friend in the video…which is what was said over, and over, and over, and over again. Even before people responded to the Minutemen kicking them in the face.
I don’t expect much more from them, given that the way they deal with their (racist) issues with immigration is to SHOOT people. Protesters come at them with words, they come back with their fists…or feet, in this case.
I’m not gonna lie. Sometimes I might think Kulawik and others need a good kick in the face to get their heads straight, but I would never DO it. I know how to deal with ideologically violent words with truth-telling as opposed to physical violence.
@are you joking you’re words right now just showed you are a bigoted hateful columbia student. i want you to remember however much you hate the people you describe, that you have now earned the hatred of one of your columbia peers who thinks as little of you as possible based upon your words
@disappointed I am a bigoted, hateful Columbia student because I can point out the idiocy of the Minutemen and Columbia Republicans violent response to the protest?
How about, they are bigoted, hateful Columbia students for inviting vigilante murderers to the campus, to polarize our community, and to physically and psychologically assault people of color and supports at the event. THAT is a biggoted action. Condemning them for following through with VIOLENCE is not.
@yeah because you scream murderer and then claim they’re physcially and psychollogically attacking when you’re cohorts ran up and bumrushed the stage, started fights and kept on shouting, wore masks and brought eggs into teh event.
You’re the real racist, bigot jerk who claims anyone who disagrees w/you is a killer or whatever and frankly you are a miserable human beign becasue on top of that you somehow think your crap smells like perfurme on top of it.
jerk
@mariana Yes, you obviously are a BIGOTED Columbia student, because you have no reliable information upon which to base your salvation of mankind. Everything you believe about what Mr. Gilchrist WOULD/MIGHT have said is chimerical. Had you LISTENED to Mr. Gilchrist, you could have legitimately disagreed with firm ground upon which questions could have been asked or challenge s made during the Q & A period afterward; however, weakness, uncertainty and cowardice drove you and your Thug cohorts. If you had any confidence in your position, it would not have been necessary to shout the man down to enjoin him from speaking.
This fantasy of yours, that ILLEGALS have no voice in this country is amusing. In Ca, ILLEGALS are given preference over American kids, whose parents and grandparents built, paid for and maintain still, the university system, are FORCED TO PAY TUITION.
There was a time when Universities were institutions of higher learning, where unpopular views could be expressed and heard, discussed and debated. No longer. They’re now Politically Correct Gulags, run by feckless elites, disassociated from the society and nation that created them for ENLIGHTENMENT. Fat Chance!ma
@Free Speech? How was this “denying” Jim Gilchrist his “free speech”? Last I heard he had a very large organization with millions of dollars, and thousands of dollars. Not too mention that he is continually being interviewed on television and radio. No one “silenced” him, in fact he likely just got a short burst of notoriety from this event. This is merely responding to a public figure’s opinion. I probably wouldn’t have stormed the stage had I been there, mostly because I already know Chris Kulawik is a f’ing loon and feel like it would be a waste of time/effort. But the allegations that this is anti-freedom of speech is pretty ludicrous. Some of you people are pretty weird. We have to allow everyone to speak, digest their opinions and then manifest our opinions by voting. Wow, those ideas really worked out great for the abolitionists, civil rights movement, and you know, every other major beneficial change this country has had. I laughed when someone in the Bush administration said liberals would’ve attempted to sit down and discuss things with Hitler instead of going at him, but judging by the opinions here, he was pretty right on.
@have you read the thread you moron? hitler is treaded territory and youre history is wrong. stop making more uninformed comments
@free speech? “How was this ‘denying’ Jim Gilchrist his ‘free speech’?”
A planned “occupation” of the stage less than five minutes after he started to speak? If you can’t stand to hear anyone who disagrees with you speak, then clearly you don’t believe in free speech.
“Last I heard he had a very large organization with millions of dollars, and thousands of dollars.”
Aside from the poor repetitive structure of this sentence (I think millions of dollars covers thousands of dollars, right?), free speech is not related to whether you have a lot of money but rather whether you are allowed to present your views in a civilized forum without being attacked for them. He was invited to give his views, but clearly so-called “liberals” on this campus can’t stand listening to anyone else speak but themselves.
“No one ‘silenced’ him…”
News flash: the event was forced to be canceled, students who might have wanted to hear what he had to say in person were denied the ability to peacefully do so. That’s being silenced. Face it.
“This is merely responding to a public figure’s opinion.”
As the spec notes, the protestors knew BEFORE the event that they would occupy the stage. They weren’t responding to a public figures expressed opinion, but rather they were acting out against a public figure before giving him a fair opportunity to be heard.
“We have to allow everyone to speak, digest their opinions and then manifest our opinions by voting. Wow, those ideas really worked out great for the abolitionists…”
The abolitionists actually won elections (starting with Lincoln), and it was the anti-abolitionists who decided to try to stop the debate and secede because they knew they were losing the political battle.
Martin Luther King, Jr. and Ghandi were able to bring about magnificent civil rights achievements, and neither had to resort to violently occupying a stage. Too bad the ISO monkeys have learned their tactics more from Mussolini and Stalin than these great leaders…
@Your Momma It’s desturbing to us real adults to see you kollege Kids dont even know you live in a representitive republic.
It looks like Columbia U. is little more than a glorified daycare centeryou children should all grow up.
@on the other hand I think you should go back to kindergarten and take a spelling class before you start throwing around the daycare label. Kollege with a k?
@ARGH IT. WAS. A. JOKE.
You all scare me.
@haha Sorry ’bout that then. I guessed I missed it was a joke because it wasn’t funny.
@Anonymous I got the joke…now I am scared.
@Anonymous You should look up sarcasm idiot
@wow we’re going to hit 300..
if this hits the news, and i’m assuming it’ll hit some new place..i wonder if bwog has the bandwidth…
@sad It seems to me like Mr. Gilchrest was “being silenced.” Maybe he should go stand in a “safe space” on Low Plaza. Oh wait, those are just for liberals.
@honestly that CTV film was a let down. despite the far distance and unsteady camera, i was at least hoping to see some blood. i say they crop in some WWF footage.
@andrew “Once upon a time, I used to care about these kinds of things. Then I came to Columbia and found myself surrounded by ill-informed crazies that only sort of care, but enjoy following the herd. Now I stand back and laugh. It’s so much more fun this way.”
EXACTLY
anyway, the people who are zealous about political clubs and stuff at this school just do so because they aren’t good at anything else
@Uhm I meant “least popular”. Assumed my overall meaning would be clear within the context of the message.
@Anonymous I, too, confused “most” and “least.”
@j train you rule.
@well, A nice big middle-finger to you too sir, for being so ignorant and arrogant. How about you get out of your “alright, revolution” dream and work to make some real change? All you people ever do is storm stages, shout and then blame everybody else for the problems of the world. You offer solutions that have not worked, and dirty the rest of the left that (unfortunately) is associated with you. Instead, go work for somebody, knock on doors for candidates, and make a real difference.
@LMAO “knock on doors for candidates, and make a real difference”
OH MAN, HAHAHAHAHAHA, best comment of the night…by far….you do that pal, you do that.
@and And after you’re done LMAO, you can pull your head out of your ass too.
@someone fuck, i can’t believe i missed this event
@Iri Admittedly, perhaps this was not the best tactic for exhibiting our First Amendment rights but some of the comments I am viewing right now are downright disturbing. It’s a little frustrating to see that even within an institution where some of the brightest minds reside, ignorance is still rampant. Most people that I know attended the protest didn’t go to be “revolutionary” or any such thing.
I think many of you are letting your own personal biases and opinions of the Columbia student body stand in the way of achieving a full understanding of the issue at hand.
As for all the generalizations, stereotypical, even racist comments that I am seeing – Good job guys, way to take advantage of that First Amendment right. I can see why you’d think you’re way above those protestors(insert sarcasm).
@yeah cause we’re using violence right now to advance our view
you’re such a simplistic idiot and asshole its going to make me gag
@i smell irony because when someone uses violence to advance their view, that’s a good thing.
the minutemen will go right back to the border and keep shooting illegal chicanos. you want to change something? go down to the border and point a gun at every minuteman.
@no proof means you’re a libelous hateful bigot
@wait... who do you mean is the bigot? the one who said violence was his/her means to the message? or the one who replied by saying he/she should shoot a minuteman for each chicao? because it sounds like the latter is OBVIOUSLY “libelous” and “hateful”, considering it reeks strongly of sarcasm.
@iri Not because you’re using violence (your intelligence right now is out the park by the way) but because you’re advocating the same views that led to such violent protests.
I also would like to thank you for such wonderful usage of the gag reflex, at least until you finished writing such a wonderful and enlighting counter-argument. Really, it impresses me.
@retard fighting words are still different from fighting
i suggest you try both and see what happens to you in a court of law
@hyperbole, familar? Don’t get your panties up in a knot. You obviously didn’t mention Gulags. Someone’s just trolling.
@Anonymous Checking in, with solidarity with those protesting Gilchrist et al.
All of these arguments saying the protestors obstructed free speech tonight are missing the role protest plays in debate. Debate is not the exclusive domain of people at podiums; it is also the hope of the disadvantaged. Debate is the vehicle for positive change. When an entire group – say, illegal immigrants – are excluded from public discourse, it is their right and perhaps even responsibility to seize some sort of loudspeaker. If they cannot or it is too dangerous to do so, then it is not an obstruction of free speech for others to fight on their behalf. It is, quite the contrary, the very definition of free speech: the granting to the silenced some kind of voice. Make no mistake: illegal immigrants are in fact voiceless, and as the Minutemen make so horrifyingly clear, in danger, as well. Kudos to the protestors tonight for acting with courage.
One more time, for those conservatives who think they’re championing free speech by arguing against protest: sometimes changing the venue of debate is necessary to grant a disenfranchised group the opportunity for expression. That’s what we saw tonight, that’s something I support.
Hm. In that “name” field above this comment I’m writing, my name appears very large. Well then. Cheers/greetings/goodnight. I’m hungry.
@that's it if you feel youre voice is being passed over by other groups who’rre louder, use violent methods to grab the mike
great advice there geoff
you big idiot
@Anonymous The sudents that were courageous were the ones that went to the event to hear BOTH sides, from the speakers who could not be heard and the questions that could not be asked.
@ugh >One more time, for those conservatives who think they’re championing free speech by arguing against protest: sometimes changing the venue of debate is necessary to grant a disenfranchised group the opportunity for expression. That’s what we saw tonight, that’s something I support.
There is no excuse for bum rushing the stage, and I say that as someone who happens to detest the Minutemen. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean the right to disrupt a private and peaceful assembly, no matter how hateful you think their speech is. If the speaker had been allowed to make his speech, I’m sure there would have been rows of Columbia students waiting to rip his rhetoric to shreds with intelligent questions (we’re generally a pretty smart group, with the exception of a few would-be revolutionaries). Instead, by choosing to physically disrupt the talk, they handed the Minutemen a victory, and gave the group far more credibility and publicity then they got from being invited in the first place.
Some parting advice: In the future, when similar events of this nature are planned, you know what you guys should do? Absolutely nothing. The most powerful indication that the group doesn’t represent the values of Columbia students would have just been to ignore the speech. If you guys didn’t make such a big deal out of it, probably a dozen people would have showed up. The College Republicans would have been embarrassed, the Minutemen wouldn’t get any more publicity, and all of this time and money wouldn’t have been wasted on these redneck vigilantes with delusions of grandeur.
@rps >When an entire group – say, illegal immigrants – are excluded from public discourse, it is their right and perhaps even responsibility to seize some sort of loudspeaker. If they cannot or it is too dangerous to do so, then it is not an obstruction of free speech for others to fight on their behalf.
That’s funny. The protestors look like a bunch of upper-middle class honkies to me. The kind of rich white people who only deal with illegal immigrants when they hire them as nannies are not exactly excluded from public discourse, and they get plenty of air time and column inches telling us that we’re too lazy and soft to get by without illegals.
@actually “Protest” the minutemen is different than “jump on the stage and disrupt speech of the minutemen.” So those 600 are people who agree that the Minutemen can be protested.
Also, who’s more arrogant here? The “middle-class” (an arrogantly vague description) people who remembered the right to free speech? Or the protesters who felt their opinion was so much better that they could just turn their back (literally) on debate?
@GUMBY NAFTA is the f-ing reason so many come to America from Mexico in the first place!!! I fail to see how subsidizing American factory farms in order to flood the Mexican market with underpriced corn helps the small scale farmers in Mexico. Their original livelyhoods were replaced by industrial slavery in the Megalopolis of Mexico City, but it has dried up or the people don’t want it. Regardless the case has not been made that NAFTA or CAFTA for that matter, do anything other than allow the US corporations to exploit latin america more. They don’t remove barriers of free trade, they transform it into a monopoly allowing the US government controlled by multinational corporatinos to use US tax dollars to increase the profits of corporations. It is in no ones benifit but the corporations and it certainly hasn’t benifited the Mexicans who come in ever increasing numbers since NAFTA was passed. This is not a theory, it’s a fact. The people that fight to protect their “wonderful” country from invading Mexicans are missing the point that the corporations are the ones that threaten both of them by forcing them to compete for limited resources in a market economy while enough exist to provide for all. It is the ruling class that creates the two groups from one, it is the ruling class which benifits from the two groups fighting each other, it is the ruling class which must be stopped by a common struggle to achieve equality in a socialist society more democratic than any that exist today. Solidarity. ISO.
@oh my god That post shows how much of an idiot you are and how little you understand about the world. And of course you confirmed my suspicions of your disease when you wrote “ISO” at the end. May the gods have mercy on your helplessly lost mind.
@GUMBY It’s very unfortunate for you that your ignorance prevents you from making any factual legitimate criticisms of ideas, instead regressing to petty name calling. You can’t even defend your criticism with one word that would qualify as a rational thought, much less anything remotly resembling logic. Obviously you are much more lost than I. Those events are all true and I challenge you to prove me otherwise.
Madison Campus ISO
@Anonymous wow if you watch the video, you see students go on stage making an uninvited statement with the banners. BUT then you see “scott” try and steal/rip up the flyers and engage in a tugging match and then Kulawik jumps in the fray behind him. Then all hell breaks loose.
Way to go Chris Kulawik. Had they not been so grabby it would have been just another out of control protest by CU students thinking they were at some sort of party. But it seems like Scott and Chris incited a rumble.
And what is this moral highground bullshit that “scott” gives at the end blaming the liberal democrats of Columbia for what happened? Conservatives wouldn’t do that? Yeah right.
@Liberal Girl Well, I’m glad it was all caught on video, so we now have definitive proof of the stupidity of Scott’s statement.
@yeah that’s what this thng is about. scott making a overreaching statement in teh middle of a heated confrontation. we shoudl hang him for it
how bout the fact your liberal cohorts stormed the stage and attacked (physically) speakers who they disagreed w/
it must be a proud day for you
@Liberal Girl GOOD LORD. Read my original statement before hitting reply.
I said it is JUST AS STUPID for a Conservative to generalize about Liberals as it is for Liberals to generalize about Conservatives.
Step one, take your head out your ass. Step two, READ THE POST. Step three, hit reply. Got it?
@yeah that’s it. writign step by step instructions excuses your vapidity.
you’re piling on some show who was just in teh middle of a brawl to make a partisan point and then trying to qualify by ssaying you were applying it to everyone
quit trying to deflect
if you were really serious you’re moniker wouldn’t have had a partisan leanign in it
@Liberal Girl I am who I am.
Calm DOWN. I used hyperbole. Exaggeration, sarcasm, all that good stuff. Surely you should be able to recognize it when you read it.
And again, I reiterate: Pfffft.
@Anonymous you’re making the same freaking over stretching comment that Scott did. What makes you think these people are liberal democrats? aren’t you clever.
@Anonymous who the heck is Scott? That video is so fuzzy how could you figure out who “scott” is? Were you on the stage?
WHY hasn’t anyone asked if the student who was kicked in the head is okay?
@Anonymous you can tell it’s scott who is on stage bc he is wearing a black v neck with a silver pen in the V. bad fashion sticks out like an eye sore.
i can see kulawik from a mile away too.
@kulawik actually looks disoriented and worried…
doofus shoudl ahve expected htis
@Well Someone posted some links about connections to violence above (I think). Regardless, there are a plethora of links on this page to show the vast connections between the Minutemen and various white supremacist groups such as the National Vanguard. In fact in certain places, such as Laguna Beach, CA, the National Vanguard is one the primary organizers of the local Minutemen and Save Our State (Minutmen type group in CA) chapters. These are fringe, openly-racist groups, yet the Republicans are inviting them. Not too bizarre, considering one of their members is a declared fascist/corporatist. Reading these posts I’ve found the vast majority of Columbia “liberals” are fairly weak and most of the conservative critiques about them are fairly dead-on. Whenever someone acts to voice their opinions but in any way rocks the boat they are immediately condemned and distanced from by “liberals” who call for more “dialogue” and the such. At the very least the conservatives on campus have no problem whatsoever voicing their opinion no matter how controversial, shocking, or un-orthodox it may be (affirmitive action bake sale, inviting controversial speakers, etc). However, liberals being tied to absolutely no ideals are far more concerned with keeping the status quo. Good luck with that 2006 election Democrats, if you’re wondering why your having trouble taking back the Congress from one of the most popular administrations in decades, it may just be because you’ve moderated yourself into complete irrelevance.
@Anonymous “…one of the most popular administrations in decades…”
Um…Do approval ratings in the 30% zone mean anything to you? Doesn’t sound like a popular administration to me.
@Liberal Girl Scott says, on the video, “These people are animals…No Conservative would ever act the way we just saw the Democratic Liberals act.”
He’s right. Ultra-Conservatives just blow up abortion clinics instead, which is much more civilized.
/Not trolling, just trying to show how stupid it is to make blanket statements about any one group. k? thx.
@are you suggesting that teh people who disrupted the event were ‘ultra liberals’ or equating them w/bombers of abortion clinics?
@Liberal Girl Dude, read my post.
I’m pointing out how stupid it is to say that one group would “never act like that other group, look at them, they’re a bunch of savages.”
Pfffft.
I have to say, this is one of the few exciting things that ever happens around here.
@WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA
Exciting thing? Those things arent allowed on this campus. There will be absolutely no voicing of opinion on the part of individuals on this campus. Everything will be orderly. We’ll invite individuals, and you will listen. If you disagree, feel free to fill out a Protest Request Form at the Low Library security desk and march in the marked off designated protest area. We don’t want to mix things up too much. That goes against free speech. And also tolerance. Also it is SO uncivilized. I mean, come now, this kind of thing is downright EMBARASSING. How am I supposed to explain to my friends that there are actually people at my school and in my classes who have, like, convictions and opinions and stuff? ICK!
@SS Considering that the facebook group “Protest the Minutemen” has over 600 members, the protest was probably not a fringe movement, especially when you consider that there are most likely more people opposed to the Minutement who aren’t facebook-obsessive enough to have noticed the group on the issue.
@Mark There is no limit to people’s ideas. If you want to limit people’s ideas move to fucking China or North Korea. See how you like it there. If some KKK Grand Wizard came to speak on campus, I’d still give them the chance to speak. It’s their right.
@Anonymous Is there anything other than “intelectual paralysis” out there? Does anyone have any EVIDENCE for the last time before I go to bed.
@Zach vS We’ve got the Yahoo Video version of the footage linked at the top of this post, until YouTube comes back online.
@good god i’m out of this thing. the sad this is that columbia is going to get so much flak for this
@CTV NEWS VIDEO IS BACK UP AT
http://www.ctvnewsonline.com
@thinking out loud It is crossing the line to chase people off the stage. But how do you hear out a group whose “unorthodox methods” (ny sun) include SHOOTING people? When that line is crossed, when violence and murder are advocated by the group, do we really have to listen patiently and reason with them? I’m not sure it’s fair to ask people to do that. They’ve crossed the line, are linked to murder. Even if I did sympathize with their cause, I’m uneasy with the idea that we’d tolerate a group that’s crossed that line. Thing of any other “freedom frighters” that cross the line and kill innocents– what that group (not the idea, just that group) has to say is no longer important once they kill innocents.
For example they can go ahead ahead and invite neo-nazis to speak– but if that particular group is connected to a bunch of murders, why should we let them speak? Why even give them that legitemacy?
@no... where is the whole minutemen organization linked to murder? that’s libel and you’re a bigot trying to label a group based upon one or two assholes in it who the group doesn’t even associate w/.
i could say teh same thinga bout columbia liberals after rudd decided to start to blow shit up.
quit youre hateful bigoted labeling
@Anonymous Okay ‘thinking out loud’ what evidence do you have? 232 posts and counting, but still no evidence on how the Minuteman Project has “blood on their hands” I hate to be a pest here but does anyone on that side of the argument have any evidence I can cite without being laughed at in a class?
@David The Spartacus Youth Club – who I believe don’t actually have any student members – have in the past put up flyers defending nuclear weapons for North Korea, the “deformed worker’s state” being still better than capitalism, in their view. Some of those may still be up in Schermerhorn.
And oooo – the ISO is Trotskyist, moron. http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/contemp/pamsetc/twosouls/twosouls.htm
@Hmmf Oop, there you go, those are what I’m talking about. I think you can disregard my comments, then.
@Michael Savage different shades of gray. they’re both anti-American.
@Well Havent seen the flyers in Schermerhorn, what do they say? If they advocate profileration of weapons, I’d be interested in who put them up. If they advocate proliferation of nuclear power as an energy resource, then at last finally someone has some common sense. If we relied on nuclear power the environment would be far cleaner, most of the world could be electrified to a greater extent, and we would not have to worry about energy dependency.
@Hmmf I thought these were everywhere. But I may be misrepresenting, as I’m not sure if they’re ISO or a similar fringe group, off the top of my head.
The gist (in all caps) is that Iran in particular, and everyone in general, needs nuclear weapons to defend themselves from America.
This caught me slightly off guard.
@Cam 167-169-174: Hi, troll. Having fun?
Anyway, this one got my attention:
‘Finally the Minuteman himself enters. … “As soon as you graduate, you’ll all be investment bankers. I’ve been where you at. I know you hate yourselves.” ‘
Revealing! I think you could start psychoanalysis from that. At any rate he appears to think we are a factory for soul-selling corporate whores, a common stereotype of the Ivy League where he’s from. Wonder where the protest fits into this warped little worldview. Did he think they were all being directed by our liberal administrative overlords? Maybe Kulawik is the puppet who’s cut his strings, a limp little tool to be picked up and directed by whoever gets there first.
@hah calling someone else a troll douchebag? ballsy
@Cam I believe a spade’s a spade, and I can see you’ve been trolling. Bet you love the responses you’ve been getting, don’t you? They make you feel so special.
@big man calling out ‘trolls’ on teh internet while posting inflammatory internet messages calling all who disagree w/you bigots
yeah. classy work. you must feel great
@Anonymous The Spec article says, “Participating students would be dealt with under Dean’s Discipline.” Why do I have the feeling they’ll be treated more harshly than the kids who committed the hate crime in Ruggles?
@Anonymous Good point J Train…”dean’s discipline” will eventualy turn into a 10 hour mandatory community service.
@Mark Columbia students seem to have this idiotic mentality where they say they are pro-“diversity,” but their “diversity” is limited to race and religion, not ideas. If someone’s viewpoints disagree with theirs, they are quick to protest them into oblivion. Good fucking job. Way to make the world a better place. I hope one day when you’re trying to exercise freedom of speech, someone does the same shit to you.
And don’t say I’m some Republican-loving jerk, because I’ve been on the front lines of many protests. But chasing someone off stage is crossing the line.
@Cam Are you seriously arguing that we should give a racist a stage to speak on because his racist thoughts are different from ours?
@are we seriously givign admission to bigots like you who like to hurl ephithets at those who disagree w/you?
why donn’t we all just wear patches on our shoulders if we don’t agree w/cam’s worldviews so everybody knows who to spit on and attack
@Anonymous wow that was uncalled for.
@yeah becuase calling people racist bigots who people are ashamed to be teh same species of isn’t
hypocrite
@Cam I suppose I’ll bite one more time.
My point – oddly enough – is not that the guy’s a racist. It’s that there is a limit to “his ideas are different, so we should listen”, and that racism is well past that limit.
Whether or not the guy is a racist has already been beaten well to death.
@cam. there’s no point arguing w/that fellow. i probably agree w/him/her in terms of views on immigration but frankly the person can’t handle themselves in a civil manner–something which has been demonstrated in the comments section and at the event by both sides.
I agree though w/your assertion that at some point an unsavory view crosses teh line into a violence inciting one and must be censored. However, the arguemnt then is precisely whether this guy is racist.
its unfortunate we’ll likely not have any reasoned student debates on this issue
@David It wasn’t just the ISO, however much you would like to be able to pin it on “crazed extremists.” Is the Chicano Caucus a “fringe group” now? Less so than the Republicans I think…
@the truth MAY THIS CATALYZE FUTURE DISSENT AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY!
Americans don’t DESERVE shit! Ivy League kids don’t DESERVE shit! Rich people don’t DESERVE shit! White people whose families in the US go back 200 years don’t DESERVE shit! None of us/you are special for these reasons! If anything, you have more blood on your hands than you could ever realize!
The people that deserve ANYTHING are people who speak and act on Truth.
@oooo Capital T, really?
You know what you preach is truth, while most of the other silly mainstream kids are willing to allow for an open forum to approach collective truth.
Those silly a**holes, why the ISO has had the answer THIS WHOLE TIME!
LONG LIVE STALIN! GULAGS FOREVER! WOOT WOOT!
@TRUTH I DIDN’T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT GULAGS YOU FOOL
@looks like freepers will be on this soon too http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1711937/posts
@As a member of both the CR’s and C4 I want those who are posting here on BWOG and elsewhere to know that the College Democrats were NOT involved with this fracas tonight and have been supportive of what happened tonight. This embarassing event tonight was orchestrated and conducted by fringe groups here on campus who do not speak for the vast majority of the campus. Though we have certainly had (I personally) differences with the CD’s before they have always been differences that have been treated with respect for the others opinion, and with a general understanding that both sides should be allowed to express their opinions.
It is becoming increasingly obvious that this campus is being overtaken and run by these fringe groups and by organizations that make up a scant small percentage of the overall student body, and whose goal is to eliminate any and all sort of dissenting opinions. Anyone or anything that does not agree with their mantra or their dogma is immediately shouted down as racist, phobic, extremist, when it is in fact these groups which are racist, phobic and extremist.
The audacity of the ISO to come on stage and complain about crimes against humanity and immigrant is beyond comprehension. These are the same people who advocate a system of government that has been tried before and has proven to be the most totalitarian, the most oppressive and the most murderous in human history.
The actions tonight of the fringe radical groups were appalling and do not represent the views, tactics or actions of the groups like the CR’s, C4 and the College Democrats.
@GUMBY Actually the ISO does not support the State Capitolist countries you are confusing with socialism. Virtually all the countries that claim to be socialist or communist are state controled capitolism. The reason that Russian socialism is no more is actually related to the 14 imperial armies that invaded simultaneously destroyed the most democratic form of government that ever existed were groups of workers voted members to represent them from their own ranks. These represenatives could be removed at anytime and they were not paid any differently much different than continual increase in salaries and multiple year terms despite known problems. Their votes were done in a open room with debate much different than isolated ballot casting determined mainly by propaganda. Their democratic government was destroyed because of the invasion the US, Japan, England, France, Italy, etc to stop the working class from taking control of their destinies. The ISO supports throwing off the shackles of slavery that bond virtually all people and to rise up and overthrow the ruling class which corrupts our institutions and exploit our people. Maybe you should learn about them before making an ass of yourself on a public forum.
Madison Campus ISO
@gumballs Let’s be able to spell the things we’re discussing mmkay?
The Capitol is a building in DC.
@GUMBY Oh ho hum. At least I have content in my posts instead of petty tritisms
@Alex The liberals in this country are way to conservative while the conservatives do whatever they want. What we really need is communism.
@see. adhemir’s my boy. i completely disagree w/him on this issue, but i’m thankful he came out and condemned this thing. he and the chicano caucus largely probably wanted this to be peaceful adn now this is just bad all over
@yeah, I feel bad for him, because people who don’t read the press release are going to blame the Chicano caucus when in truth it was groups like the Spartacists and Answer who hijack these protests to push their own agendas, such as “OMG FREE PALESTINE FROM TEH EVIL ZIONISTS!!!” (and yes, I did hear words to this effect tonight. Minus the intense emotion. Dude, I came to protest the Minutemen, not to hear the people who try to sell newspapers on College Walk ranting YET AGAIN.)
@Right on Every debate the Socialists take over instantly becomes irrelevant, and they’ve yet to miss a debate…
I think it hurts what should otherwise be a very healthy liberal movement. Instead, we all get to look like wackjobs advocating pretty awful stuff like nuclear proliferation (seen the flyers in Schermerhorn?)
@fyi... no: the opposite of yes
know: to perceive or understand as fact or truth
@um... source? mysterioius circumstances? you’re aware traffickers have been regularly known to shoot or abuse illegal immigrants?
@their speech wasn't hateful..none of their quotes were. the protestors were the hateful bigots.
@Towelie O RLY? Regardless of what was what, I will bet right now that Bollinger will be oddly silent about this.
@sean for those asking for evidenc of minuteman shootings:
“Two migrant people were shot under mysterious circumstances last week in the border region where the Minutemen have been patrolling. One was shot in Mexico and one was shot inside the US. While “Mexican authorities” have claimed that “bandits” were behind it, the victims were quick to point out that nothing was stolen from them. This strange circumstance is added to by the fact that these “bandits” used laser scopes to target their victims.”
@Anonymous UHMMM…how do I cite a quote with no context, title, or author? And the quote doesn’t even say the words minuteman?! Seriously I need evidence. I can’t go blindly into the night here….
@Hmm I think the debate is over whether or not hate speech is “free speech” since it vaguely impinges on the rights of others.
The real qualm over having the Minutemen give their presentation is that it was perceived less as a discussion/debate as much as an espousing of hate speech.
Is this their right and should we as a community allow them to speak?
@By virtue of the fact that Columbia is an institution of liberal education, I don’t see how we can reasonably prevent them from speaking (providing they’re not advocating violence, which they may have, if they had been allowed to speak). We can, however, not listen, which is what we should have done. Don’t attend – don’t be kulawik’s seat fillers. Let the man speak to an empty room – there’s no better way of showing that his values aren’t welcome or relevant on this campus.
@Towelie 200th post!
@Towelie Tokenism = oldest trick in the book.
I wonder how the tokens feel about it.
Maybe they just get paid…a lot.
@Anonymous I am looking for evidence for the claims that the Minuteman Project has “blood on their hands” I was there. I saw the ‘brawl’ in person and the videos.
@sean and to the politically naive: most racist organizations dig up token people of color to speak for them. the BNP does it too. don’t be fooled.
@bwog was linked to malkin. impressive but expect a deluge of right wing comments
this might also be bwogs big moment though w/excellent reporting
@Anonymous Evidence…anyone? Anyone out there with actual evidence? ANYONE?!
@Towelie EVERYBODY CHILL:
http://www.b3tards.com/uploads/MEOWYIFFMEOW.swf
@news recap of where this has been covered:
http://www.nysun.com/article/40983
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/006053.htm
http://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2006/10/76890.shtml
http://media.www.columbiaspectator.com/media/storage/paper865/news/2006/10/04/News/Minuteman.Protestors.Rush.Stage-2332630.shtml?sourcedomain=www.columbiaspectator.com&MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com
http://www.ivygateblog.com/blog/2006/10/insane_tugofwar_disrupts_vigilantes_speech_at_columbia_fistfights_head_kicks_spill_onto_stage_party_like_its_1968.html#comments
of course bwog
and we’re not even 10 hours from teh event
@to natalia: the more you talk, the less i respect your opinion. i think you should have left it long ago because now you sound like a blubbering idiot.
@you and sean 187 are racist bigots who like to demonize everyone you disagree w/
I hope to never meet despicable hate mongers like you both
@Holy crap Dude, please stop posting the same thing over and over. It’s adding nothing to the discussion. Or at the very least, look up “bigot” before you do.
@no.. we’re going to start calling you for what yo’re really doing when you start chanting racist for no reason
then you’ll no how it feels to have had this thing happen at an event you may have had hopes of attending in peace
@sean Are you people fucking kidding me? The Minutemen are an openly racist organization with links to plenty of neo-Nazi groups, and there’s good evidence they are involved in shooting Mexicans trying to cross the border. To say that they have a “right” to speak ANYWHERE is just ridiculous. They should be fought tooth and nail every time they make an appearance, especially somewhere that prides itself on being progressive. The idea of battling fascism by politely asking questions during the Q&A session is absurd. I’m sure you all know what Hitler said, the only way the Nazi party could have been stopped was by fighting them in the streets from day one.
@ugh >I’m sure you all know what Hitler said, the only way the Nazi party could have been stopped was by fighting them in the streets from day one.
That’s just not true. In reality, the Nazi party was fought from day one by other paramilitary groups (the SPD and KPD in particular), and the Nazis were actually able to use that to their political advantage. The Nazis eventually were elected because no one paused to ask questions… no one questioned their politics enough to figure out the genocidal policies that lay underneath the Party (Contrary to popular opinion, the Nazi party was elected to power mostly because they promised economic reforms, not by blaming the Jews).
So, yeah, history tends to invalidate all the points you’ve been making, but, hey, don’t let that stop you. You gotta fight the power and shit, man.
@don't fool yerself girl: it’s going right up yer poopshoot
@question to those who think tonights actions were ok. if gilchrist wasn’t brought and some think tank guy who supported deportation of illegal immigrants and wanted a wall built was brought would you immediately label him a ‘racist’ and try to disrupt the event?
@zach.e53.org I wonder what the “protestors” believe they accomplished tonight. I see the usual (and only) card being played by the same old liberals in the comments. “Racist Racist”, enforcing laws… is not racist. You would think that people attending an “ivy league” university would understand that… then again.
@Anonymous Hmmmm only 34 comments on Ahmadinejhad but 174 and counting on the ‘minuteman brawl’…is this Columbia?
“Zell Miller, Tucker Carlson, Newt Gingrich, Laura Ingraham, Bill Bennett, Bill Kristol, Jonah Goldberg, Ben Stein, Ken Starr, etc etc” do not attend physical fights and after the behavior tonight will not attend/speak at Columbia.
Lastly if you have evidence for crimes commited by or on behalf of the minuteman project…POST IT! Evidence that can be cited, not rumors.
@Scroll up to comment #43, for one.
Also, Ahmadinejhad didn’t make it in the door, thanks in part to the same structure of opposition, albeit operating through more official channels. Not much to be outraged about, it was one step from just being a rumor.
@yeah there’s actually videos of you sicko bigots storming the stage and destroying property
@so, i'm guessing this will this be the first ever bwog post to hit 200 comments?
@shut up racist bigot. yeah nazi saluting a black guy reading from teh bible and constitution is doing that.
and don’t try to shit me w/the entire group hunts humans for sport. the majority of the minutemen aren’t violent and mainstream news organizations have highligghted that…even if a small percentage of a particular interest group is bigoted, that doesn’t negate teh point it means that part of the group are assholes and the point still needs to be argued
you try to call everyone a racist, then chant racist at them and then violently charge the stage
guess what shithole. there’s not going to be a bolshevik revolution anytime soon and soon right wingers are going to start charging left wingers speeches and everything will just become a huge fight
and filthy individuals who are really animals like you are the cause
you disgust me and i hope to never meet such a vile human being as you
@Er... That one wasn’t even coherent. What?
@simply you’re a racist bigot full of hate and that’s all teh iso and chicano caucas will appear like to the rest of the campus
@Christoph Re: YouTube down
Can you host the video on your own server or do you want to upload it to Google video?
** Ugh, it asked me to describe the color and I said “bright”. What’s wrong with your spam filter?
@you just made my night!
@yeah forget the 4 bill. if i was an alumn i wouldn’t give columbia shit.
in fact i’d be ashamed at this point to admit i was a columbia alumn
@Disappointed Alum Wow, as a recent alum, I’m disappointed students couldn’t find a more civilized way to express their opinions. I think this hurts Columbia’s credibility and these protestors turned off more people (non-Columbians at least) to their message than they inspired to follow them.
@What? Honestly?
If Columbia students don’t protest the Minutemen, a psychopathic group that essentially HUNTS HUMANS FOR SPORT, who the hell should we protest? The Klan? Kulawik hasn’t invited ’em yet, but I’m sure there’d be the same number of “boo-hoo-where’s-your-free-speech-now” comments.
We’re the fuckin’ youth of this country. It’s our job to point out where the society has gone HORRIBLY WRONG and try to create a new model, by whatever means we have to. That’s what universities are best at, and pretty much always have been.
@outraged. thank you, i completely agree. and this point needs to be stated over and over again. it’s not just about free speech.
@someone the fact that i actually attend a university which is supposed to be a bastian for enlightenment with people who support these neo-nazis makes me physically ill. being in the same room as them was even worse. i come from a family of holocaust survivors and i don’t for one second think the term nazi is being misused. this group is a violent, hate-mongering bunch of racists. i am sure that if my grandparents who escaped nazi germany were here today they would agree with me. my family came to this country to escape persecution in another country and were granted amnesty because of the ideals that this country was founded on — “give me your tired, your poor…” we opened our doors to holocaust survivors and refugees seeking survival wherever they could find it. genocide or not, we should open our arms to people from all countries seeking a way out of an otherwise hopeless life. we would expect the same from them if the tables were turned. when bush starts forming “global warming isn’t real / intelligent design” reeducation camps, i sure hope another country will let me in.
@you're a nazi you hate people so much you characterize them into ephithets when you agree w/them
you are a disgusting racist, bigot, fueler of hatred
I am ashamed you and i share teh species
@Madashell Those sorry as ingrates ought to get an old fashioned American ass-whooping. Infringing on someone’s free speech is not cool at all…even if you dont’ disagree. I bet if it were a bunch of commies speaking, they would’ve screamed racisim if someone tried to stop them.
F-ing bastards..
@back to the topic One last point that needs to be made. The most powerful opponents to liberalized immigration policy are labor unions. Liberals today face the task of deciding where their true allegiances lie; shall they continue to support the ideal of what unions should stand for, or shall they support the actual human cause?
@ASSAPOPOULOS THE ONLY ALIENS I AM WORRIED ABOUT ARE THE ONES ORBITING EARTH RIGHT NOW IN A MOTHERSHIP.
WAKE UP PEOPAL!!!!!!
@a protest that stamps out free speech is never valid. it is an affront to liberty.
@um, no a protest is an exercise in free speech. that’s what free speech means, everyone shouts over each other and whoever shouts loudest gets heard. Doesn’t mean the protesters don’t get punished, but breaking a rule isn’t the same thing as committing a moral wrong.
@mike I also protest violence against another human beings, immigrant or not, but I do not do so using violence.
By using violence, mob tactics, and overbearance, you have lowered yourselves to the level of these “minutemen,” these fools who like to dress up in army gear and play “Mission Impossible” with people’s lives.
One thing you have gained from this protest, at least, is one more columbia student disgusted with the so called “liberals” who cannot tolerate opinions other than their own.
-Mike Bottom
@Vietnam? China? Where have you been the past two decades? Do you have any idea how both of these countries have changed since liberalizing their economies? Do you know how many fewer children are working now, and how many more are going to school? Freer trade has worked wonders in both countries, and continues to do so.
@re: David In regards to your earlier bashing of NAFTA, you should understand a little trade theory before passing judgment. ALL tariffs and barriers to trade are harmful. They’re harmful for the country implementing them and their harmful for their trading partners. The only exception to this is where a large economy (and in the modern world, the US only really fits this characterization) can influence world prices, and even then there are negative consequences.
NAFTA has absolutely benefited its member countries, but the gains in competitiveness that Mexico briefly enjoyed were overtaken by the emergence of even cheaper sources of labor in East Asia. Raising barriers back to pre-NAFTA levels would be disastrous and give even more incentive for Mexicans to make that dangerous trip across the border.
You may disagree with this, I can only say that it is because of an incomplete discussion of the issue, or an outright rejection of modern economic theory. But in rejecting trade theory, we’re left with absolutely no theory, and discussion ceases to be meaningful.
@NAFTA This is a valid argument in the wide view. In the long run, NAFTA works out great, but to use the tired old Keynes quote, “in the long run, we are all dead.”
Speedy implementation doesn’t work well for free trade in any sense that isn’t economic — the workers are getting screwed, badly, by rapid shifts in economic trends that are beyond their control. Protectionism should be phased out, certainly, but the US hasn’t even given up on trade barriers. At the same time, we’re making ridiculous policy decisions on the national level that create temporary phenomena with wide-reaching consequences.
@asdf The US has the lowest trade barriers of any country in the world. This is not to say that it should stop where it is, but unfortunately special interests (steel, agriculture, unions) are holding up the progress.
@ugh “LONG LIVE ZAPATA”
Okay, never mind, you’re a fucking idiot.
Honestly, if you’re so gung ho about this shit, why not go to Mexico and study at Universidad La Salle? Clearly the racist, classist, xenophobic environment of Columbia University doesn’t suit you, and you’re certainly not doing anything to change it.
@right statistics can say whatever you want them to say
@Zapatista VIVA LA RAZA
DEATH TO OPPRESSION
LONG LIVE ZAPATA
TO HELL WITH THE MINUTEKKKLAN
THEM FOOLS GOT BEATEN UP LIKE BABIES
WHAT THEY GONNA DO NOW, HUH?
@cassie you. are. retarded.
@i can't believe this I’m actually shocked by the ignorance and arrogance displayed by so many of the posts on this thread. For all the complaints I’ve heard about how Columbia is this bastion of liberalism, I find most people here to be overwhelmingly conservative! It was a protest, people. The whole point of a protest is to cause a disrupton. Protests shouldn’t just be grudgingly allowed in our society and our university, or penned in some “free speech area”, they should be actively encouraged. Why aren’t there more protests, more disruptions? I count protest a viable, valuable form of public debate.
One more thing: most of us lead lives that are almost unbearably privileged. Anyone who thinks they “deserve” to be an American is kidding themselves. And anyone who can go to Columbia and not feel the slightest twinge of guilt over it (especially every time they walk past a groundskeeper, security guard, or dining services employee), is heartless.
@Sister Act AMEN to that brother/sister.
Saying that protest is rude is like saying that ipecac makes you puke. That’s the whole point of protest: it’s rude, it’s disruptive, it gets people outraged. God forbid there be unrest in our numb and complacent society! Hooray for protests! Hooray for social unrest! They are the grounds of revolution.
@well see then, if you claim your protest was to disrupt and was an act of civil disobedience, then you should face the legal consequences of your actions. if this was a private event, the protestors would have been and rightfully should have been arrested.
@Uh... Except that it wasn’t a private event. Besides, who says the protesters aren’t facing the consequences? Who are you even talking to?
@you're an idiot it was a private event taht was open to columbia students and signed in guests.
tool
@Ugh! Protest can be disruptive. It shouldn’t be violent. If you disagree with what he’s saying, don’t jus talk over him. You can’t persuade me that your ideas are right just by shouting his down. Make it clear that you dissent, but do so in a manner respectufl enough that we can still engage in civic debate on this campus.
@cassie yay for free speech. i always thought it was a good idea…
i hope i dont hear any idiot on this campus try to tell me about free speech again, because obviously we could use a lesson in it ourselves. we may not agree with jim gilchrist, but that does not mean we can disrespect a campus speaker. would you riot during one a lecture if you disagreed with something the professor said? i certainly hope not, but perhaps thats not too far from happening, given what we’ve seen tonight.
@ugh Some of the stuff that people from the Nation of Aztlán group say is just as hateful. (That said, I’ll concede that it was members of the Minutemen who were invited to come, and not Nation of Aztlán).
@Anonymous if a nazi was invited to come and speak at CU, what would Jews students do?
@mat If a Nazi came to speak at Columbia, this Jewish student would enourage people to attend and do everything to make sure as many people as possible heard him, unfiltered, so that as many people as possible could see his hatred laid bare. The thing about bigots on the right AND the left is that, whether through their words or their actions, they’re the very first to let you know that they’re bigoted. I’d say both sides did a fairly good job of doing so tonight.
@hmm wish i could have heard what Gilchrist had to say about all this… maybe ill run back from mexico and ask him
@middle ground i think there should be a middle ground between letting everyone in and letting no one in. i think the united states needs to make it easier to come and should basically allow those seeking assylum to come in but deport those who break the laws of the land simple. let everyone in!
@Jill From http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=917:
…At Station Two, Minuteman volunteers grilled bratwursts and fantasized about murder.
“It should be legal to kill illegals,” said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. “Just shoot ’em on sight. That’s my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die.”
“I agree completely,” Michael said. “You get up there with a rifle and start shooting four or five of them a week, the other four or five thousand behind them are going to think twice about crossing that line.”
…With a grilled sausage in one hand and a cheap night vision scope in the other, Johnny scanned the brush in Mexico, spitting distance away.
“The thing to do would be to drop the bodies just a few hundred feet into the U.S. and just leave them there, with lights on them at night,” he said. “That sends the message ‘No Trespassing,’ in any language.”
Nice, Huh
@Zapata Latinos deserve to be here, especially Mexicans, who are always the first nationality people think of when “illegal immigrants” are mentioned. Mexicans deserve it because the US stole Mexican land, from California to Texas, getting vast amounts of gold and oil. Without Aztlan, the US would not be as rich. The ones complaining about how hard it was to get here, you definitely do not deserve to be here. What has the US taken from your country, that is worse than what they took from Mexico?
@that is a rediculous philosophy….with your thinking only the native americans deserve to be here… and everybody else should go back to their native country… people who were born here deserve to be here.. the rest are lucky enough to get in by what ever means possible (except running the border)
@higher learning? a university is a place to hear all sides of an argument, and then form your own opinion
The people who jumped up on stage today and prevented the speaker from talking are just as bad as the fundamental right wing wackos that censor material and refuse to listen to left wing arguments.
@anti-racist Here’s tons of links making the connections between minutemen, anti-immigrant hysteria, racists, neo-nazis, and xenophobes
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/intrep.jsp?iid=35
http://www.splcenter.org/center/splcreport/article.jsp?aid=150
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=181&site_area=1
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=610
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?site_area=1&aid=149
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=571
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=19
@shut up read up on some history will you and stop being such an ass.
@I wonder If Spec’ll have anything on this tomorrow. Anybody know when they go to press?
@sharing From: Lucas Michelson
To: Columbia University Conservatives
Subject: Student Assault at Lerner
Message: For those (few by now) of you who have not gotten wind of the attacks at Lerner a short time ago, I wanted to share my experiences there. After an introduction by one of Jim Gilchrist’s associates, marked by continuous jeers and ludeness from the audience, Gilchrist himself (founder of the minuteman project) came on stage to begin his presentation. Within moments of his appearance, two students brandishing a banner appeared on stage across from him and incited further protestors from amongst the audience to leap up and rush the stage.
Instantly, the scene was changed from a familiar Columbia protest of a conservative speaker to an all-out assault on a university guest. The table was leveled, chairs flung, and people were pushed off stage left and right as the small contingent of security guards belatedly joined the efforts of the few people in the front rows to escort Mr. Gilchrist offstage and to safety. Fortunately for those involved, there were no serious injuries, unless one considers those dealt to the reputation and pride of the university.
What does this say about our ability as an academic community to allow forum to all sides of an issue? Students, not to mention a guest speaker who was invited to campus, were put in physical jeopardy as their peers recklessly abandoned all semblence of civility and resorted to violence. Are we as a society to allow ourselves to be overcome by mob mentality when we are denied the instant gratifications of censorship? So much for objective education. So much for higher learning…
@I like how the only people who engage in debate are extremists. I’m tired of “KILL THEM MEXICANS” vs. “EVERYONE MUST BE ABLE TO LIVE IN AMERICA”. There is a middle ground, and despite my best efforts to express it, it is constantly overwhelmed by blind followers from the extreme right and left. Neither of you is right, and the only thing more dispicable than the hate crimes are the people who blindly defend anyone and everyone, because they are for one reason or another bent on autoflagellation. You feel bad for living here while other people suffer? LEAVE. GO SUFFER WITH THEM, instead of being GLAD to have this opportunity. I don’t feel bad for attending Columbia just because the majority of the population is NOT in the Ivy League.
@Anonymous I’ll get some of our footage too. Where “Scott” (the guy interviewed by CTV News) kicks someone in the back.
@Andrew I think that the students’ passion and ability to kick the founder of a racist, nativist militia off the stage is not only not reprehensible, but amazing.
The point that was made, quite strongly, is that racism and xenophobia have no place here.
@Bwog We’ve added the CTV footage directly to this post.
@disgusted what’s hilarious about this whole thing is that the very area that is patrolled by the minutemen WAS ORIGINALLY MEXICO! the u.s. stole it. talk about illegal aliens?!?!?!
does anyone remember how this country was founded? europeans invading america, committing genocide on native americans and forcing them out of every once of land wasn’t any more “legal” then the immigrants who come here today looking for a better way of life.
so you know what? unless you’re a native american, i suggest you shut your big fat fucking mouth about immigration, because somewhere down the line your great-grand-daddy or other was once an immigrant too. and just think about where you’d be now if the native americans had imposed “immigration laws.”
might i remind you what it says on the statue of liberty? i think you’re all well aware. do you suggest we take it down in light of recent developments?
@ugh >what’s hilarious about this whole thing is that the very area that is patrolled by the minutemen WAS ORIGINALLY MEXICO! the u.s. stole it. talk about illegal aliens?!?!?!
Uhhh, what’s your point? That was a long time ago. Not as long ago as the Spanish who formed Mexico (I guess all of the mestizos living in Mexico are illegal immigrants?) wiped out the Aztecs (who in turn took over land that belonged to the Tlaxcala by force). But still pretty long ago.
@it's up the video is actually working again… check it out…
@Andrew I mean, I disagree also with some of ANSWER’s rhetoric, which is at best simplistic and at worst stupid. However, ANSWER doesn’t hurt anybody and isn’t responsible for any harm directly, whereas the Minutemen are. To compare them in the same sentence is wrongheaded.
@Holy crap When that video is working, it’s awesome.
@ummmm S-dog:
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/110247.shtml
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen_15.html
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=915
@Ian Crone I am no fan of Gilchrist and his mob of vigilantes. But it is a shame that we have forgotten Voltaire’s words of wisdom:
“I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.”
These people may be full of crap, but this is America. Let them say what they will, and respond with rational argument. That is how to win, not with demagoguery.
@Anonymous Unfortunately, Stewart and Gilchrist made no attempt to engage in rational argument. Taunting the audience doesn’t count. Maybe if it had gone to a Q&A, we’d have had something worthwhile.
@ugh can people stop using “illegal” in quotes? illegal immigration is….. guess what? illegal. maybe it SHOULDN’T be, maybe it’s a stupid, ineffective law that makes it illegal, but it’s still illegal – just like getting a drink at a bar if you’re under 21 is illegal, no quotation marks required.
@David “Illegal immigration” is one thing. But “illegal immigrant” is another. Applying the adjective to people is dehumanizing.
Ian: why does Gilchrist’s right to talk over the audience trump the audience’s right to talk over Gilchrist? Because he got the invitation and had the university on his side? So free speech is about protecting the powerful from the powerless now? And if we are to keep responding with rational debate to people who are organizing armed militias, at what point do we get to act?
@clearly there was a place for the opposition to express their views. there was a counterprotest outside and one could easily hold a pro-immigration rally at some other time.
let me posit another hypothetical. i think that by conscerating the body and blood of christ, catholics are engaging in idol worship and cannibalism. so i go to a church an interupt the mass. protected speech my right to argue and shout down the priest.
i don’t think so.
the speaker has a right to speak not to be drowned out by booing. if you didn’t want to hear the man speak, you didn’t have to come.
@Andrew oh yes, of course! that wonderful little “free speech zone” cattle pen outside was so direcly challenging to the Minutemen. God forbid they would actually have to have any contact with the unwashed masses outside.
@i concede the point that free speech zones created inequality. i am against free speech zones. the fact that columbia students cannot protest the minutemen on their own campus is absurd. they have no right to interrupt the speech however. protest and disruption are two different things.
@S-dog Okay, i lied, i checked bwog one more time.
Dave, dude. Read above, I was quoting DIRECTLY from someone else’s comment about Gilchrist ACTIVELY recruiting racists. All I heard at the protest tonight was “KKK!!! Nazi!!!”.
I thought some evidence would be relatively easy to provide. Anything. Link to a picture of KKK or Nazis at minutemen events or provide an eyewitness account. Again, I’m not saying they don’t, I have no idea, its entirely possible, its just that people are throwing around some heavy accusations without backing them up.
I checked la.indymedia.org’s ‘immigration’ page and saw no pictures and read no account of your recruitment or overt participation of Nazi’s or the KKK. Maybe I missed it, entirely possible, just please, as a personal favor, link it.
I don’t even agree with their politics, I just would like to see people back up their accusations.
@David Here’s a link to the SPLC, found via a very brief Googling:
“Racists join Minuteman Project”
http://www.splcenter.org/center/splcreport/article.jsp?aid=150
Like I said, they have a bunch of material on these guys and Gilchrist specifically.
Not that they aren’t disgusting enough and essentially fascist – far-right nationalist militia – in and of themselves, regardless of their connections. I don’t throw around “fascist” lightly, Bush certainly isn’t one, but these guys occupy exactly the same social position as Franco or Mussolini or Hitler early on.
Natalia – all of these immigrants contribute, more jobs than they occupy and more taxes than they spend (see above). The undocumented ones are just paid less, making them even less a “drain.”
@natalia david, this isn’t my terminology, this is actually what my family had to proove when we applied to come here legally….
@yea wtf where’d it go.
@Jon youtube video just disappeared. anyone save a copy?
@Anonymous We had the right to speak for the powerless against the powerful. You can’t have a legitimate debate with people who terrorize immigrants. If the CUCR had invited somebody from the other side of the spectrum, then it would have been called a “debate”. But they didn’t. Did The Minutement think they were just going to come to Columbia (knowing CU is mostly liberal) and not be challenge? ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS ONE THING, HUNTING PEOPLE AND THE VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS IS AN ATROCITY.
@David Some relevent facts (oh those!) on the economics-ish debate above:
# The U.S. economy is growing at approximately 3.5% per year. 1% of this is attributable to increase in population through immigration. By this means, immigrant labor contributes more jobs than it occupies. (Chacon, p. 160)
# Wages, even for workers at the lowest end of the wage scale, are higher in U.S. border cities than comparable non-border cities. Studies of sudden influxes of Cubans to Miami, Algerians to France, and Russians to Israel found no effect on employment or wages. (Henwood)
# Immigrant workers have been more combative than the native-born in seeking greater wages and benefits. The absolute number of immigrant workers in U.S. unions grew 23% between 1996 and 2003. (Chacon, pp. 285-6) The absolute number of all workers in U.S. unions, immigrant and U.S.-born, dropped by 3%. (L.R.A.)
# Undocumented immigrants pay more in taxes than they use in services, by an average of $1800 net per person. 49 states have a net fiscal gain from undocumented workers. (Chacon, p. 165)
More and sources here:
http://benignimizer.blogspot.com/2006/09/immigration-from-mexico-to-us.html
@David S-dog – because anonymous commenters on BWOG failed to respond to your demands? Come on. The KKK and Nazis show up openly at Minutemen events, and while the leadership including Gilchrist have disavowed them, they haven’t done anything to keep away, and have told people that if they can’t handle being on the same side as Nazis, they should find another group. The Southern Poverty Law Center has a bunch of stuff on this.
The guy in black in that CTV video, by the way, is a straightforward lier. The only ones kicking or punching anybody were a few of the Republicans and Minutemen, himself chief among them. The video is blurry, but look at it.
@mat ANSWER is Stalinist. Like, literally.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1031-08.htm
Tonight we saw fascist means towards ostensibly “left” ends. That’s called Stalinism. What a coincidence!
@Anonymous Yeah, you’re right. ANSWER is shit. They’re the same lunatics that turned a mainstream anti-Iraq war rally last September into a “Viva Fidel!” fest. As a sometime member of the “activist left”, I am embarrassed that liberals allow garbage like ANSWER to dominate the discussion with their proto-fascist tactics. They’re a gift to conservatives.
It almost made me feel sorry for the Minutemen – until I remembered the content of the speeches themselves. Invite right-wing fascists to speak, expect left-wing fascists to respond in kind.
What a night.
@Andrew My point was that you cannot (without resorting to fascistic means, more or less) curtail immigration if your economic policis create the class and conditions that create immigration! Immigration is not something that you can turn off and on like a valve, it is a FACT of the neoliberal order.
So yes, as one of the aforementioned Russian legal immigrants, I say that there should be a general amnesty for people here. These workers are the lifeblood of the economy and without amnesty they will only continue to be repressed and exploited. If the US government wants to keep immigrants out, it has to build alternative economic policies, plain and simple.
@ugh do you honestly believe that people wouldn’t want to move to the U.S. if American foreign policy were different?
Does American foreign policy negatively impact other countries? Yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that America is the wealthiest nation in the world, and people will want to move here no matter what. That’s why there was so much immigration to this country before American foreign policy had such an influential role in world affairs.
@Yes it does > do you honestly believe that people wouldn’t want to move to the U.S. if American foreign policy were different?
Well, sure. You don’t see countries with favorable global trading relationships (France, the UK, etc.) experiencing mass emigration to the US.
> Does American foreign policy negatively impact other countries? Yes, but that doesn’t change the fact that America is the wealthiest nation in the world, and people will want to move here no matter what.
No, actually, that’s *exactly* what that does. Countries with relatively equal policies on human rights and similar standards of living tend to hold on to their residents, out of nationalism if nothing else. And America isn’t the wealthiest nation in the world, by a long shot.
> That’s why there was so much immigration to this country before American foreign policy had such an influential role in world affairs.
Nope again. The American economy wasn’t such hot shit then either, and foreign governments were rapidly going to hell through famine and stagnant politics. People moved to have a more equitable share of the wealth that they were helping to produce.
@ugh >No, actually, that’s *exactly* what that does. Countries with relatively equal policies on human rights and similar standards of living tend to hold on to their residents, out of nationalism if nothing else. And America isn’t the wealthiest nation in the world, by a long shot.
Gee, you mean Western European countries that were industrially developed before the U.S. don’t have that many immigrants trying to come here? That’s a huge fucking surprise. If anything, they should be far wealthier than the U.S., and we should be trying to immigrate there.
The U.S. has the third highest GDP per capita, behind Luxembourg (which has less people than Wyoming) and Norway (where people are scared shitless about how their quality of life is going to go downhill once their oil runs out). Now, that’s just GDP per capita… if you’re talking about the nation as a whole, America IS the wealthiest nation in the world, and by a long shot.
>Nope again. The American economy wasn’t such hot shit then either, and foreign governments were rapidly going to hell through famine and stagnant politics. People moved to have a more equitable share of the wealth that they were helping to produce.
Uh, you sort of just proved my point. As other people have mentioned, other countries manage to screw up their economies just fine without American intervention. Which would explain why we are “a nation of immigrants,” which has had a constant stream of people flowing here since way before America began to wield such influence with its neighbors.
@Well Industrialized? That’s exactly what my point was. By stunting the economic growth of developing countries, we are creating a situation that makes immigration an imperative — Andrew, above, explained this a good it better than I did. In an equitable world, we don’t have a problem. Why are we building a fence instead of working toward a level playing field?
I didn’t prove your point with the second comment, either. My point is that the past history of immigration to America was on the shoulders of despotism and poverty. Sure, other countries *can* screw up, but it’s tough to deny that our lousy policies abroad (read: propping up dictators, implementing free trade so poorly that countries undercut each other’s sweatshops rather than form a well-grounded economy) aren’t helping the situation any.
@ugh I’m curious what exactly “implementing free trade so poorly that countries undercut each other’s sweatshops rather than form a well-grounded economy” is supposed to mean?
Free trade helps poorer developing countries… any good economist, conservative or liberal, will tell you that. You know why people work in sweatshops? Because, believe it or not, even at pennies per hour, it pays a lot more than any other job they could get. If you look at India or China or Vietnam – all countries that were once incredibly poor – you have free trade to thank for their recent successes. They’re still plenty of poor there, but they’re experiencing rapid economic growth thanks to, in part, the American empire that you love to bash so much.
@Well , being a sweatshop apologist isn’t a good policy. Big f’ing deal if a sweatshop is better than what previously existed. Would you work in a sweatshop? Free trade policies mean that if Country A can reduce the rights of its workers, outlaw unions, and shave half a cent on the dollar off of manufactuing costs, then manufacturers will happily shutter factories and march over to the *that* grimy corner of the Third World.
Vietnam? China?
I’m not bashing some “American empire”, sorry, particularly since the policies I mention are common to most of the world’s industrial powerhouses; but, if you think our blind, staggering approach toward free trade is the best way to go, you aren’t looking hard enough at the problems of the developing world. A lot of these countries aren’t getting better all that quickly.
Naomi Klein’s “No Logo” is pretty good on this point: without restrictions, there’s no such thing as corporate responsibility abroad. How much abuse of workers are cheap manufactured goods worth?
This is getting pretty off-topic.
@ugh Would I work in a sweatshop? Yes, if it was better than anything else I could get. Anyone with half a brain will work the best job they can get, even if its in a place as unsavory as a sweatshop. That’s why people work there voluntarily.
Look, I realize it’s hardly ideal, but realize this: all that shit… sweatshops, repressing workers’ rights, anything to shave half a cent off the manufacturing cost… that’s why America became such a successful country, such an economic powerhouse (Seriously. You’ll see that the annual growth rate of the American economy begins to shrink as we moved away from those sorts of working conditions). That’s what happened here, and that’s what most other countries WANT. So you can talk about unions and workers’ safety all you want, but most people will take a job in a shitty factory over no job at all.
@Anonymous i’m sorry, we do not exactly participate in free trade in America. We participate in free trade when it serves our interest and when it does not we impose tariffs on imported goods for “protectionist” reasons.
We also severly destabilize foreign economies by means of our rapid economic liberalization. Read some stiglitz, get a little edumacation.
@ugh >i’m sorry, we do not exactly participate in free trade in America. We participate in free trade when it serves our interest and when it does not we impose tariffs on imported goods for “protectionist” reasons.
This is really getting off-track, but yes, you’re right. I never meant to imply that America was a full-fledged supporter of free trade in all its incarnations (agricultural subsidies come to mind). I happen to believe that the U.S. economy should be, if anything, more free.
@Free trade Stiglitz is a joke. Read some Bhagwati or Panagariya or a ton of other economists that can actually prove their claims with solid theory and empirical evidence.
And FYI, I’ve read Globalization and Its Discontents and a number of Stiglitz’s papers, not to mention seeing him lecture on a few occasions. I’ve also read a substantial amount of literature and papers advocating for freer trade and they are enormously more convincing.
@Anonymous I’ve read Bhagwati and Panagariya and am not convinced by them. Let’s not turn this into one of those “Good Will Hunting” moments. ay?
@C-money I’d love a “Good Will Hunting” moment because I’m sure which position I would be in… unless you broke the mold and actually did have a thorough argument with apt citations in which case I would be delightfully surprised.
However, I’m tired of the talk about trade despite its relation to the immigration situation because it’s unfortunately little understood and would likely only be between the two of us.
I’ll just say that Stiglitz does indeed have valid criticisms, but I take considerable objection to his conclusions.
@Anonymous I agree, not really the place for that discussion. Machine gun paced posts in the midst of “racist racist racist!” don’t exactly scream good conversation. Another time. We shall meet again, dun dun dunnnnn
@S-dog Logging off from Butler. I want some proof that the Minutemen actively recruit white supremacists or Nazi’s by the time I wake up tomorrow.
Silence will be considered an admission that they in fact don’t and I will thus lose the last shred of respect I had for so-called free-speech “activists”.
@Zapata Don’t be fucking ignorant, they don’t even have to recruit, the racist mothafuckas go look for the Minutemen. All of them are racist, they can “spin” that they care about the nation’s security or whatever other bullshit, but they target Mexicans. Give back Aztlan, from Texas to California, plus the gold and oil, plus interest, i guarantee no Mexicans will come to the US again.
@ugh > Give back Aztlan, from Texas to California, plus the gold and oil, plus interest, i guarantee no Mexicans will come to the US again.
Mexico itself is a nation formed by Europeans who took over and enslaved the native populace. Do you think all of Mexico should be given over to the 13% of the population who are indigenous Amerindians?
@anyone else find that statement to be b.s.. i wish security would have forced them off the stage
@i'm sorry but the people who rushed on stage cannot claim the moral high ground on this one.
@Anyone find it ironic that they host patriotic vigilantes one week, but when it comes to patriotic vigilantes in ~other~ countries, well they need to “turn away from violence” or whatever Chris said in the daily spectator.
@David Here is a statement put together by the people who occupied the stage:
We celebrate free speech: for that reason we allowed the Minutemen
to speak, and for that same reason we peacefully occupied the stage and spoke ourselves. Our peaceful protest was violently attacked by
members of the College Republicans and their supporters, who are the
very same people who invited the Minutemen to our campus in the
first place. The Minutemen are not a legitimate voice in the debate on
immigration. They are a racist, armed militia who have declared
open hunting season on immigrants, causing countless hate crimes and over 3000 deaths on the border. Why should exploitative corporations have free passes between nations, but individual people not? No human being is illegal.
-Those who occupied the stage
@S-dog I’m an impatient bastard. I want evidence that the minutemen are actively recruiting nazis or white supremacists now. NOW. I checked out la.indymedia.org and saw NO proof.
@chris well done– nice grassroots journalism, bwog.
@Curious Was this event filmed? If so, someone get that tape out to the blogosphere.
@David Re #64:
The storming of the stage was filmed. The film is being sent to me and I will post it to youtube and send it to BWOG as soon as I get it.
@come on if Fox doesn’t want them then why should we?
@a good point i don’t think we should open our borders entirely. that’d be stupid. but i also think we should welcome immigrants…historically they’re what have strengthened america
@can you please point out an instance in recent history where immigrants have strengthened the country… and we do welcome immigrants now.. legal ones.. we have to pick and choose amongst all those that want to get in.. they have to proove that they will not become a burden on the country
@What, you mean Besides the hundreds of well-established immigrant communities that aren’t “recent”, I guess, how about those who left China and Korea during the Cold War? Most established themselves within one to two generations and now form a huge, successful contingent of society.
@right i think they have yet to assimilate…if you dont believe me travel a few blocks south
@What the hell? And you lose your relevance by being an asshole rather than accepting a pretty obvious fact. Bye-bye.
@S-dog From the minuteman website:
“The Minuteman Project (MMP) is a citizens’ Vigilance Operation monitoring immigration, business, and government.
MMP has no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from, separatists, racists, or supremacy groups.”
I’m not saying they don’t, but I’d like some proof that Gilchrist’s “organization actively recruits white supremacists”
@magon FUCK YEAH! Tear these asshole minutemen up. I’m from san diego/tijuana and i went face to face with gilchrist and his cronies innumerably. He’s a dirtbag that is using anyone he can to push his views of xenophobia through. This is not free speech, its hate speech smothered in good ol fashioned liberalism. Dialogue and debate are appropriate when meaningful dialogue and debate can be had (ie, in a loving relationship when the relations are more important than the subjects). Dialogue and debate cannot be had in an abusive relationship when the subjects are more important than maintaining the relation. State-backed free speech loving liberals don’t realize that free speech only makes sense on equal terms of power, in non-abusive relations of symmetry. In relations of asymmetry, or abuse, the dynamics must be rethought in terms of powe. (think of domestic violence for instance: does dialogue help stop the abuser? No. getting away does. fuck the abuser. This is domestic violence 101.) Gilchrist is power monger building on subterrean race or class hatred to scapegoat deeper problems of this country. Don’t be fooled, and don’t treat him as an equal. For christ sake, we sure as hell know that he doesn’t treat “illegals” as equals.
@i still support free speech. shouting down a speaker is in violation of that. you can try to rationalize it all you want but remember if you believe in free speech only for opinions with which you agree, YOU DON’T BELIEVE IN FREE SPEECH.
@interesting would you treat a homeless man who has trespassed into your home and was planing to not only stay there but to demand rights, the same as a visitor you have welcomed and let in through the front door?
@yay thanks for the great coverage and pics bwog! Puppies and kisses for all
@Anonymous It’s about time we had a good fight. Sometimes…it’s what feels good. Shame I didn’t see it.
@Charlie A. CNN has called the election:
Everyone loses.
I fully agree with #25 as a loyal Republican party member. The current Republican organization on campus is repugnant to me, I wouldn’t touch ’em with a thirty foot pole – hell, I’ll sing the rest of “You’re A Mean One, Mr. Grinch” at them just to prove the point. It’s despicable that they’ve thrown their lot in like this for a quick buck and a ticket to the conservative think tanks.
That being said, all y’all who got in there and made a scene tonight just added fuel to their fires. They now can put on their resumes, “I am a Free Speech Hero. I defended the right of a small minority view to speak at a biased Ivy League institute.” Those tanks’ll say “Welcome aboard and welcome home, son!” And they’ll get a fat ol’ paycheck and the keys to a lot of Congressional offices so they can slip in and present their viewpoints.
You are giving them exactly what they want by causing a fuss. A protest outside is great! A protest indoors? Rude and not helpful! You let them speak, you let them leave, you ask questions pointedly but politely to get the view across.
I had other commitments at the time, so I had to leave my spot for others, but I’m glad I wasn’t there. It’s a sad day when the protesters only wind up empowering and vindicating those whose policies they despise.
yrs truly,
Charlie A.
@Vernunft It’s good to hear a voice of reason out of the rabble.
@you're so right. And this is the kind of republican thought I can respect and engage with. And you are also right that campus liberals really damaged themselves by behaving in this way. Thanks for being a voice of reason for both sides
@tipping off authorities isnt illegal. they’re not ‘taking the llaw into their hands’ because they’re not making any legal judgement- they just point out suspects
nice attempt to change teh debate. why don’t we break all laws and then yell at people who try to call the police to investigate us
@lala yay bwog for covering this!
@ha ha actually many latin american countries support NAFTA! and as a legal immigrant i have to disagree.. we do come here for the special priviladges and the better economy.. which my country screwed up all on its own.. we didnt need any help from the americans.. in fact we ask and recieve there help to improve or conditions.
@Not Rudd Once upon a time, I used to care about these kinds of things. Then I came to Columbia and found myself surrounded by ill-informed crazies that only sort of care, but enjoy following the herd. Now I stand back and laugh. It’s so much more fun this way.
@Andrew Also, speaking as a legal immigrant myself, whose family had to jump through all the bureaucratic hoops of the INS system, it is important to realize that the status of legality connotes a lot of privilege – for me, my parents were educated in the USSR and were invited to come here on a work visa.
Its not that Latin Americans are coming here because they want to get some kind of special privileges. They are coming here because US policies are screwing up their home countries’ economies for the profits of our own economy. If America really wants to stop immigration from the South, it needs to renegotiate NAFTA and all the other free-trade agreements that are destroying local agriculture and creating this class of mobile labor that is coming here.
Otherwise, it is just creating a class of potential immigrants and then trying to put walls up against the inevitable and persecuting them when they come here.
@penta i love this fucking university.
@actually Um, actually, we have plenty to benefit from more immigrants in this country. The reason our country is so great is that it has constantly gotten more immigrants who are willing to undertake the journey here. While I do not believe this is an excuse to give amnesty to illegals who have knowingly broken a law, a larger, healthy flow of immigrants into this country can only improve our collective pool of minds and working ability. And if you were at the speech tonight, you would know that these guys’ average audience is less than educated. Heck, his lead-in’s stump speech included explaining the 3 branches of government. Makes you wonder how educated his supporters are.
@Name I’m going to give my easy, step by step solution on which we can all agree, so everyone should stop fighting.
1) Illegal immigration is illegal for a reason. It may be a bad reason — I personally think it is — but it’s a logical one that should be discussed civilly. We can and should work within the system to make things better.
2) Peoples’ status as legal immigrants gives them no particular right to criticize. Immigrants are Americans in every sense and have no special exemptio nwhere reacism, or anything else, is concerned. However, it is not at all “racist” to say that people are breaking the law, especially when, in fact, they are.
3. The comparison some posters make between Minutemen and Nazis, while quite a stretch, is in many ways apt. And if Nazis has a large following and significant campus interest, theyh should be invited to speak. the Voice of Reason will prevail — it’s the restriction of liberty that leads to tyranny. Protests are healthy and laudable as an expression of disapproval, but anyone who people want to listen to should be allowed to speak at a bastion of academic freedom like Columbia.
Now everyone shake hands.
@uh huh #34 sounds like Tao Tan.
Sorry, but the voice of reason precludes letting Nazis speak, just as it does letting Ahmenijad speak.
@i know for a fact that its not. Republicans leadership and Tao are still in Lerner meeting with administrators
@Andrew Does anyone here understand that being a Columbia student or even being a fucking HUMAN BEING means thinking about a little bit more than your CC homework? When the Republicans take it on themselves to invite barely coherent, gun-toting fascists to campus, that represent nobody and that stand against the values of the vast majority of the campus and the city, they should expect aggressive protest. I am overjoyed that this hate-mongering was drowned out.
You all should have been out on the streets. Although immigrants are losing out nationally, the joy at this small victory was palpable.
THIS is a Columbia education, not fucking trite aphorisms about the Greeks.
@admirer Brilliant!!!!… you should have your own radio show… maybe the next michael savage…. or even beter the next pat buchanan!… where can i read more of your thoughts? a blog maybe?
@You're being sarcastic, but I’m actually gonna marry that commenter.
@nop im being honest.. and i dont think so
@would the person thats going to marry the commentator come forward please
@hmm i didn’t think he was “barely coherent” .. that must be becuase i wasnt allowed to hear him speak.. in fact i thought most of the audience was barely coherent… makes you wonder how big that crack in the admission process is.
@um... isn’t tolerance the flip side of freedom?
everybody’s stereotypes were reaffirmed all around tonight.
@BTW Will Kulawik be brazen enough after this event to write another “Columbia doesn’t honor its white legends enough – just look at the Malcolm X lounge” column?
Take your bets!
@Anonymous What do we Americans have to benefit from a massive wave of immigration comprised of people coming from poor underdeveloped countries? The answer: Nothing. The only logical explanation for the position of you immigration enthusiasts is that you feel bad that we live in a healthy, safe, and affluent country while others live in poverty. So what is your response? You choose to weaken the rule of law within your own country, and compromise the health of your own society inorder to alleviate some of the worlds poor. They very society that you recognize as a beacon of hope for the world’s poor, you wish to dillute with the world’s unhealthy, unfed, and uneducated masses. How can a nation maintain its order and continue with a cultural progression that made it the eveny of the world when it is continually being filled with the worlds most desperate and uneducated? These uneducated masses serve only to lower the incomes of America’s native working poor, as they are forst to compete with immigrants for minimum wage jobs that provide these immigrants with 10 to 20 times a day’s salary in their home country. These are the same working class Americans those of your ilk claim to care so much about. Understand the position you are supporting, an unchecked free flow of immigration, is suicidal and will certainly bring to end the healthy, safe, and affluent society we all as Americans enjoy and others envy.
@lawless by taking the law into their own hands, don’t the minutemen also weaken the law in this country?
@Anonymous First of all, I want to say hello to Shawn (smoking by the light pole)- I should have said hello at the protest.
Secondly, I support freedom of speech- so thanks Amnistia for being out there in the rain informing people. I appreciate education even when it’s not reading a text book in the libarary or going to class. You’re awesome.
@Also... If nothing else, this is the one day of the year where people can’t draw tragic comparisons to ’68 — culture of protest is back! Kind of refreshing to see one where people actually gave a shit and did something.
@ugh “giving a shit” doesn’t mean you have to act like your typical 16 year old che guevara t-shirt wearing “revolutionary.”
the problem with student protests is that they’re usually organized by attention whores who just want to make a fuss rather than actually get anything done. the louder you scream, the more people will just ignore you.
@John The tragic comparison is that campus liberals are still too ineffectual to take the dominant stance appropriate to their representation on campus. Protest is for the politically marginalised.
Alina, your family may have had to go through hell to live in the United States, but—not to belittle that experience—many other Mexican families have gone through hell just to die in the desert. The Minutemen might not be shooting immigrants regularly, but they certainly contribute to the toll: one of their many activities is interference with groups like Los Angeles de la Frontera and Agua para la Vida—they have punctured water tanks and taken up provision dumps meant to keep migrants from dying outright.
Please, also, refer to the Santorum thread for why the Minutemen are screwing us in the long term.
So what is it really like?
http://albinocrow.com/articles/0504A_illigal_migrants/0504A_illigal_migrants.htm
Various, including piercing of water tanks:
http://www.highlandercenter.org/view/view-012-border-issue.txt
Shooting suspected:
http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/110168.shtml
Shooting confirmed:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=%22agua+para+la+vida%22+minutemen&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
@Who said she was Mexican? Judging from the attitude, I wouldn’t say so.
Plus, what are you doing quoting facts in a Bwog debate? Get outta here!
@John Good point. I recant, but it doesn’t really bear on the rest of what I’ve written.
Also, interestingly enough, it seems the Border Patrol is having problems with the Minutemen:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1384343/posts?page=40
@meeeeeee what about fucking civilization people? what happened to that? hobbes was right.
@Anonymous I hate Columbia.
@as posted on b@b “i’m a legal immigrant and i support all efforts to eliminate illegal immigration into this country. it is neither our duty nor our obligation to open our borders to whoever wishes to make this their new home. no other country in the world is held up to such a standard and i therefore see no reason why we should be an exception.”
@what? what an awful, awful, awful, awful comment. it’s kinda like saying, “i’m not racist, BUT [insert racist comment].”
@as posted on b@b me again. My comment was in no way racist. Maybe you should have read it before blindly screaming at someone who seems to disagree with you. And I reject the notion that [legal] immigrants do not have a unique viewpoint when it comes to this debate. Unlike “native” Americans, we had to prove our worth before we ever stepped foot on American soil. But that is not even the point. The real issue is that NO OTHER CIVILIZED COUNTRY maintains open borders for all who wish to enter. It is a security risk at the very least, and a societal risk at most. Forget the poor uneducated masses. Imagine for just one second that France opens its Northeast border to Germany, and over the period of a couple years experiences an influx of millions of Germans, for whatever reason. Do you honestly believe France would be able to preserve its national identity, its culture, and its current way of life in this situation? Consider as well that the majority of illegal immigrants DO NOT identify with this country as their home. They proudly and blatantly wave the flags of their mother nations, staunchly refuse to assimilate into our society in any way, and are very open in admitting that they are here for the sole purpose of making money to send home. I refuse to engage in autoflagellation solely because I happen to live in an afluent nation. I am also a democrat and against most republican policy in general, and people like gilchrist in particular.
@Who's arguing for open borders? We’re talking about policy liberalization, not absorbing the entire population of Mexico.
@ummm You do realize that the European Union has open labour laws right? German people can walk across the French border and work there fine. There are also several million Poles working in Western Europe right now for that exact reason. The stupidest thing about this debate is that Republicans and moderate Democrats complain about how illegal immigration is ruining this country, yet the business interests that are behind both of those parties are working feverishly to reduce the impact of borders and make immigration extremely easy. Its very simple really, open labour markets = lower wages = higher profit. Theres a reason why Bush will give small concessions to the anti-immigrant lobby, like a new fence and what not, but wont crack down on employers or truly do everything possible to keep them out. It would damage American business greatly, subvert America’s pro-liberalization economic policies internationally and make whatever politician did it persona non grata with all of his previous donors. Its funny to hear you all talk about how the pro-immigrant people are stupid or dont have a brain. If that were true then the richest individuals on earth, the majority of international bankers, and international policy makers are pretty retarded since they’re the ones doing their all to liberalize labour markets.
@Anonymous so true. ironic, then, that the left is fighting for open immigration while the right is fighting to close our borders. read up on capitalism, kiddies, and get your political positions in place.
@well... there is a large and growing constituency on the left that favors curtailing immigration to protect our low wage workers. a lot of this is based on the work of george borjas at the kennedy school of gov at harvard. not to mention that unions have long fought to limit immigration to a minimum to reduce labor competition.
@b@b is back Don’t pretend like CU hasn’t taught you to comprehend simple prose. I used the open border idea as an example of what this country is facing if its southern border is not immediately and completely secured. I also never said that there is no hypocrisy in our gov’t and our economy. There is. Lots of it, in fact, and not just about immigration laws. My entire point is that the liberal extremists who say things like “no human is illegal” are idiots who fail to see the long-term consequences of their actions. At the same time, people like Gilchrist and texas cowboys who walk around shooting Mexicans are no better. The goal should not be to allow ANYONE who wants to come here, nor should it be to execute all current immigrants. The goal SHOULD be to close our borders completely and realize that there is no such thing as a free lunch. We had plenty of free labor before 1865, didn’t we? And just like today, there were Northern hypocrites who wanted to free the slaves AND buy their products for ridiculously low prices. So, again, don’t stop immigration altogether. God knows this country needs as many new brains as it can handle. But prevent the uncontrolled influx of uneducated individuals whose only purpose is to milk our economy for every penny it’s got. If you want to improve your economy, encourage college-educated European (i.e. Russian) individuals to come live and work here, and contribute to our society in ways no group of menial laborers could ever dream of.
@ummmmm Your example was prose? You claimed that open labour market would ruin a country. Specifically you set the example of what would happen between France and Germany if such a scenario were to happen. I pointed out that we dont have to imagine it, it IS occuring, and it has not destroyed French “culture, way of life, economy etc” in as much as the French way of life even differs from the German one in any tangible sense.
I think you’re severely misguided if you think we should completely close down our borders. My point was that while a portion of the right-wing is severely anti-illegal immigration, even the business elites who run this country realize that such labour is indispensible. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the US became protectionist, although Im fairly certain the results would be disastrous. More importantly, it would never happen as globalization and the expansion of markets is being driven by the people in real power.
@ugh The E.U. has open labor laws for other European countries – which is a lot different than open immigration. Read up on the North Africans who die trying to get into europe across the Mediterranean sea.
And there’s no question that SOME immigration benefits this country economically. But you’ll find very few economists that will say that completely open immigration would be anything besides a disaster.
@idiot Bad analogy, as both countries are part of the European Union, people can move freely from one to the other. So where is this loss of national identity you predict?
@Anonymous Let’s be honest here – the Minutemen and Chris Kulawik’s brand of barely coherent conservatism don’t speak for the majority of Republicans nationwide or even a small fraction of the Republicans on campus. Ashcroft at least was an accomplished politician with views and experiences to relate that are important for understanding America’s recent history. Not to mention, as #7 pointed out, he was a class act.
It’s too bad Kulawik and the Minutemen managed to ruin tonight whatever goodwill Republicans had on this campus. Anyone up for 2 terrorists and a Nazi next Wednesday? How about a Columbus day bbq on Monday?
@What's really sad Is that the CU Republicans varnish conservatism in America. There are so, so, so many prominent conservatives in American life who, agree or disagree, don’t have any substantial history of bigoted behavior – Zell Miller, Tucker Carlson, Newt Gingrich, Laura Ingraham, Bill Bennett, Bill Kristol, Jonah Goldberg, Ben Stein, Ken Starr, etc etc. Who do they choose to showcase?
1. Jim Gilchrist, whose organization actively recruits white supremacists,
2. Rick Santorum, whose open homophobia requires apologists to either either their hatred of gay Americans or tie themselves into logical knots, and
3. This dude next week at the terrorist event, who pontificates on how Muslims worship Satan.
The entire Kulawik strategy seems to be “attract a loyal fringe, then plug them into the ISI, Young Americans for Freedom, etc.” Great when your goal is getting summer internships. Not so great when you want to welcome non-bigots.
@Incidentally, What is with the openers at College Republicans events? Last year’s opener was such a big tool that even Ashcroft got pissed, and this year they apparently invited some weird combination of Fred Phelps and Vernon Robinson.
@John Shekitka Regardless of what you think of the politics of the Minutemen (I honestly can’t say, I never got to hear them) this whole event was a sad display. It is another blow for free speech at Columbia and amounts to mob rule. If this event wasn’t hosted by the College Republicans, this display would be deemed outrageous. But, I’m sure the Spectator will report this as a victory for democracy. Civility folks, not rushing the stage.
@los “Civility folks, not rushing the stage.” – John Shekitka
are u serious? u want us to be “civil” (whatever definition u give that) and yet u say nothing against the minutemen being armed vigilantes against humans. U say nothing on the inhumane standards in which this racist group treats these innocent hard working people. Violence breeds violence, hate breeds hate. Yes i do wanna fk up some minute men, some columbia college republicans and any other racist just like a black man is justified in fighting a KKK member just like a jewish man is justified in beating ka Nazi.
@Why "u"? Using “u” in a discussion forum like this really makes one lose all credibility in argument. Its a shame, but no one can take “u” seriously.
@I think you’re a complete idiot, but the difference between you and me is that if you came to Columbia to speak, I wouldn’t try to silence you. I might ignore you. I might not attend your event. I might walk out. But I would let you say your piece and leave peacefully. Whereas you think you are somehow justified in silencing my views if they don’t happen to mesh with yours.
@Anonymous Hello,
I am working on The O’Reilly Factor for Fox News. We are covering this story tonight, and are interested in knowing if you, or anyone else involved with this protest, would like to come on the show tonight. Please call me ASAP at 212-301-3733 if you can. Thanks.
-Greg Argyrou
@fair AND balanced i can see the no-spin zone now:
“liberal Columbia students storm the stage and brutally assault defenders of America and Freedom”
@take away brutally and everything from defenders on and that isn’t completely innaccurate
teh truth hurts huh
@um, you're wrong “[take] away brutally and everything from defenders on and that isn’t completely innaccurate
teh truth hurts huh”
OBVIOUSLY it’s not “completely innaccurate”. That’s the point of the post. Fox News is rarely “completely innaccurate” (excluding their mislabeling of Foley as a “Democrat” multiple times). One can be partially accurate enough to be “news”, and still be grossly biased.
Let me provide just two reasons that your conditions don’t change the tag line as a biased one:
1. It is still contested as to who actually threw the first punches. The students stormed the stage, but we have no CONCLUSIVE indication they they INITIATED an assault or attack upon others. Faux News however, would be more likely to ignore the reports that say CRs or others attacked first along with reports that acknowledge the lingering ambiguity (until video clarifies otherwise), and would err toward the reports that charged the actual assault to the stage-occupiers.
2. It’s rather clear the stage-occupiers were members of the ISO (and to a lesser extent?) the Chicano group. Calling them “liberal” is probably not inaccurate, as many would fall under the umbrella term, but it’s a purposefully vague word choice that directs one to associate the large group of Democrats/liberals (i.e.: the College Democrats) who had nothing to do with this, with the decidedly more fringe elements. It makes a legitimate mainstream movement appear to have far more radical and distributive methods and beliefs. It’s called galvanising the base, dear.
@um for point 2. that’s false. i can identify at least 3 people up there who were chicano caucus members and not iso just from the video.
@where did you learn how to read?
“It’s rather clear the stage-occupiers were members of the ISO (and to a lesser extent?) the Chicano group”
The sentence structure clearly means that when considering the set of all those who occupied the stages, one has at least two subsets: the set of ISO members, and the set of Chicano group members.
The only other condition was that it appeared that the first subset was larger than the second.
Though of course it incorrectly names the “Chicano caucus” as the “Chicano group”, at no point does it imply the absence of Chicano group members.
@watcher is right That’s exactly how it happened. Ashcroft is a seasoned politician and made any hecklers look like the fools they were. Gilchrist and the other guy repeatedly insulted their audience. It’s still ridiculous that people stormed the stage, but the Minutemen demonstrated that they are as uninterested in an intellectual dialogue as the A.N.S.W.E.R. maroons.
@Natalia I have never been so embarresed to be a Columbia student and to be a LEGAL immigrant. Protesters keep talking about their first amendment right.. well what about the speakers freedom of speech.. Half of them don’t even know what they are protesting.. how about listening to what he had to say and then if you actually had something of consequence to say, voicing your opinion during the Q&A…. people have to stop interchanging illegal immigratoin with all immigration. if you value your country you should know that not everyone has a right to be here.
@... ” if you value your country you should know that not everyone has a right to be here.”
Are you serious?
@ugh i’d imagine she is. it would be lovely if everyone who wanted to live in America was allowed to, but it just wouldn’t work, for a wide variety of reasons… the most obvious one being that the population would triple overnight.
Personally, I’m all for raising the immigration quotas substantially, especially for the latin american countries. open immigration, however, would be a disaster for this country.
@alina She is serious and she is right. As a legal immigrant myself, I cannot bear to see how easily these illegal immigrants get into the country and benefit from what it has to offer, when my family, and so many others like it, had to go through all sorts of hell to even get permission to be here. illegal immigration is illegal for a reason, and it is groups like the minutemen who are doing what needs to be done!
@You mean “I went through a bunch of crap, why should anyone else have an easier time of it?” How mature.
@come on yes, those illegal immigrants sure do live an easy life in this country.
@Protest To hell with that. The protest wasn’t about how awesome the law is, or how awesome the Constitution is — it’s when a group (and, on a greater scale, an entire society) is behaving in a way that’s unacceptable to a large and generally silenced element of society. The Q&A… pfft. Would you hold a Q&A with ACTUAL fascists? Or would you take action? There’s a time and a place.
@Chauncey Natalia what makes you think you have more of a right to be here than any other immigrant? You’re only a legal immigrant because your parents had the means to maneuver the legal process and obtain a visa and your country doesn’t share a common border with the US. The US immigration policy defines arbitrary quotas for each country of origin, and you were fortunate that you made the quota for your country. You didn’t earn your way into this country any more than someone who hopped the fence so they could feed their family, you just had fortune on your side.
This nation is built on the contributions of immigrants, legal and ‘illegal.’ Unfortunately in your case all you seem to be contributing is the same sense of entitlement that so many white upper middle class students at this school have. Thanks, but we already have plenty of that. Your origin doesn’t make your attitude any less difficult to stomach.
@natalia nop thats not true…. actually im here because my dad is an artist who proved that he would contribute to the country instead of being a drain. so your right maybe i didn’t earn but my father did.
@Chauncey Despite my support for liberalized immigration policies, this response by the students is reprehensible. The legitimacy of your position is completely undermined the minute you deprive the speaker of his right to express himself.
Do you really think you convinced anyone of your position by this outrageous demonstration? That answer is of course absolutely not; likely you drove anyone wavering on the issue far away from your position.
@David Chauncey is thinks many Columbia students will be more upset by some students managing to exercize their free speech louder than a racist than by thousands of deaths at the border that the racist is contributing to. Unfortunately, he’s probably right. The political atmosphere at this school can be totally fucking insane. The Spec will almost certainly scold the protesters quite firmly.
@Erm... If someone’s opinion is so malleable that the *actions* of *members* of one side of a debate are more convincing than the principles that the larger group advocates, *everybody’s* in trouble.
@Chauncey I wasn’t even referring to the shouting down of his comments, but the fact that people stormed the stage? What the fuck?
But I guess I should have expected this much from a school where students shouted down John McCain’s encouragement of people voicing opposing viewpoints in the marketplace of ideas.
@natalia one more thing… your right my attitude which you find so hard to stomach is of entitlement.. i am a student of an ivy league.. now my dad didnt donate money to the school… i earned my place here… and with it i earned the right to listen to the speakers that only an ivy league school can bring… however becasue of disrespectful students i will soon only have a chance to listen to liberals or celebrities talk about raising money for darfur or aids, not that i think they are any less important, but i want to hear both sides.
@Chauncey Yes, I agreed with everything in your first comment up until the last line where you asserted your right to be here over a multitude of other human beings.
@natalia no actually your wrong.. i said not everyone has the right to be here which they don’t.. do you think criminals should be allowed in… hmm maybe a pedophile… im going to guess your answer is no.. so my original statement “you should know that not everyone has a right to be here.” stands true. btw my grandmother hasn’t been able to come visit (yup visit… she doesn’t even want to come stay)… guess fortune doesn’t always work on your side…
@Chauncey And don’t you think it’s a little ridiculous that she can’t even come visit?
@natalia yes it sucks.. but i understand where they are coming from.. shes an older woman… they are thinking she might stay here become ill and possibly need assistance.. maybe if they weren’t so worried about people staying ehre illegally she would be allowed to come…. and it gives me an excuse to travel!
@Chauncey What if the government didn’t need to worry about her needing assistance and draining resources?
Well it turns out that they really don’t need to worry about that because immigrants (both legal and illegal) are statistically less likely to use government services than native born citizens. Undocumented citizens can’t even apply for most government assistance, so in that case it’s a moot point.
@natalia if a sick person walks into the emergency room they have to be treated… the hospital has to get paid for their service.. if the patient cannot the government in the end will. somebody has to eat the costs…. ok im done.. im going to sleep
@thank you I couldn’t have said it better myself
@who are you people? i am truly sorry that nationalistic fascists like you exist in the world. i am ashamed that we are of the same species.
@Nelson Perkins Natalia. Let me welcome you to the USA. It may have surprised you that your critic did not respond directly to anything you said but instead launched an attack on you personally. He implied that you unfairly used wealth to manipulate the immigration system to get here. He used words such as “entitlement”, “you are only a legal immigrant, and “white middle class.” Nothing in your words suggested that. Perhaps you had once seen the American university as a haven for a Socrates and Thrasymicus to debate as on the Aeropagus. It used to be that way. The reason these bwogs are so full of unsupported charges of bigotry, racism, nazism, fascism, or being KKK is no accident. Over forty years ago the National Council of the Teachers of English (NCTE) succeeded in amassing a plethora of bogus studies in support of their dislike of teaching grammar. Their neglect was aggravated further by their emphasis on drawing connotative meaning from a text and their ridicule of sifting literal meaning (or direct paraphrasal). Few intelligent students now know grammar. The result has been students cannot really cite specific points you made and state why they are invalid. Further they have been encouraged to use ad hominem attacks on any opponent. Go after the messenger instead of the message. Until schools return to education instead of indoctrination, you may have to search hard for informed rhetoric.(There’s more intellectual diversity on a city bus than in a university classroom.) In case anyone charges me with privilege, know this. My earliest ancestor to America came to Jamestown as an identured servant (a type of slave) in 1610. So much attacking my own manipulative immigrant ancestors. For those satisfied with their grammar, I challenge them to select the main clause from the last sentence of William Cullen Bryant’s poem “To a Waterfowl”: “He, who from zone to zone guides through the boundless sky Thy certain flight, in the long way that I must tread alone, will lead my steps aright.” Natalia, good luck finding someone who can converse intelligently about the Minute Men.
@ho hum Dang, ya got me. Now read your comment and notice the words/phrases you quoted from my comment which you have no context to understand them in.
First you must understand that the mindset of a typical Columbia student is precisely one of entitlement. This is true for those on both sides of the political spectrum. These students look at their current privileged position and consider the work that they have done that contributed to this position and incorrectly assume a direct causal relationship that disregards any contribution of happenstance along the way.
Many students then believe they are entitled to ever increasing privileges because of some innate superiority. Mind you, this attitude quickly disappears when the students graduate and face a world where they must prove their merits time and time again. But before then it manifests itself in displays such as this protest, where students thought they had a right to rush the stage without facing consequences, or on the other side of the spectrum, with students insisting they have more legitimacy as a human being than someone who risked their life to come here to feed their family.
A little disclaimer, I am an elitist through and through; that is, I am proud of my privileged position, and I am proud of what I have done to enjoy this position, yet I am fully conscious of the contributions of other people to my good fortune and do not believe for one second that I more of a right to be here than anyone else.
@wow FUCK THE MINUTEMEN!
@Anonymous For those that believe that this country belongs to Mexico, you’re fools. It’s obvious to me that higher education (that usually gives a free-ride to people who are mostly brainless)is in part responsible for giving you the idea that this country and life in general owes you everything. As a matter of fact, it owes you nothing. For those who do not like democracy, let them to return to Mexico or if you are a U.S .citizen, go there anyway. Let Mexico (for a refreshing change) deal with some of our misfits. It will make you appreciate our country. I would suggest that all those that oppose the Minutemen go live on the border and clean up the mass of garbage that these illegal aliens litter the countryside with. Go check out the “rape tree” and see how that works for you.You are nothing but sniveling ungrateful brats. Disgusting!!!
PS Many Americans who are Hispanics are Minutemen too!
@figgy no, you’re a fool- that part of the country was STOLEN by the u.s. from mexico- all this talk of immigrants is fucking stupid- if you ain’t an indian (native american for the p.c.) you’re a immigrant. period. now thats not bad, we let em in and they treated us like shit. racist fuckers. the reason all these fools now don’t want the mexicans coming in is cause they think everyone is like them and will enslave and murder and deport and rape everyone who is already here, like the pilgrims and columbus did to take control. fuck that. we’re better than that. and for all these legal immigrants who say that not everyone desrves to come in, fuck you. you don’t deserve to come in. it’s ok for you but not for others? that’s some bullshit. and oh, btw, traveling thousands of miles through deserts and jungle risking murder rape, theft, deportation and paying thousands of dollars is not easy contrary to popular opinion. so fuck your hipocritical logic and stop being hateful. welcome them with open arms….
@you're a complete idiot. there are things called laws. learn them shithole anarchist
@figgy hey at least i know my history… if you’re going to argue a point, do so. don’t just piss in the wind. and those laws, that you so helpfully remionded me of, well those were put in place by the murderers who stole this country. so what does that make the worth of those laws?
@watcher of idiots gee you are the intelectual….
@how does this keep happening at columbia?
@Watcher I can guess how it happened this time: Unlike Ashcroft, who stood poised last year despite anger on a similar level, this guy didn’t know how to manage a crowd or take a hit. Instead, it sounds like (I wasn’t there) he intentionally harrassed them. I’m not going to say he had it coming, but he certainly didn’t do himself any favors.
@are you kidding me? sheesh. seems like it’s gotten a bit out of hand.
@VivaKulawik Damn commie bastards. You see all you moderate Democrats that voted for Kerry, is this the kind of crap you want? Thank god we have a man with a brain in office, if not we’d have Kerry giving this country away piece by piece to Mexicans just waiting for our jobs. Viva la Kulawik revolucion! Viva El Woodleyismo!
@ignorance is bliss for an ivy league institution we have alot of ignorant bastards walking around campus…..Bush has NO brains and the same people complaining about the protest are the same people that would have sat in the back of the bus while taking it up the butt and yelling “please sir, may i have another”
FUCK ALL OF YOU
@Omar “Thank god we have a man with a brain in office”
First time I’ve ever heard that said about the current president. Makes me wonder what your definition of a brain is.
@well omar, if you step outside youre little world into america, you’ll see that AT LEAST 40% of american still do believe he has a brain, and one that functions quite well at that
@wrong Latest approval rating is 36% from Time. The latest 5 are all under 40%. Pretty pathetic, and I’m no liberal.
@you're a lier and an idiot: http://realclearpolitics.com/polls/
and good job taking time, the outlier. can i include strategic vision?
and don’t lie. youre a jackoff liberal
@Richard You’re an idiot. “Someone with brains in office”? You have got to be kidding me. The world is going to hell at the hands of a brainless warmonger and his pack of lackeys who sit around biting chunks out of the constitution.
@yes chimpymcbushrommelstuyvestanttrudeaucurious georgemchitler eats babies in his free time. and i once heard he picked his nose and ate it
@ugh the protestors outside were way too loud. some of us actually study, y’know? i’m inclined to agree with your cause, but not when it’s stopping me from working. you have the right to protest, you do NOT have the right to blast everyone in a three block radius with your rhetoric.
@VivaKulawik According to Michael “Stalin” Bloomberg they do, just ask the NYPD out there protecting these freaks! Only in America will you get cops protecting people who have committed a crime (its called ILLEGAL immigration for a reason). Im fine with Bacchanalia and all the other loud events on campus because those actually MATTER, but come on, how am I supposed to finish my CC homework with all this Spanish chanting distracting me?
@Wow, uh as if it really needed to be said: go to hell.
@John We also protect tourists. The police are tasked with keeping order—not just protecting US nationals. The law, I am sure you know, does not specifically protect citizens. You can’t assault, harass, or slur against illegal immigrants any more than you can kill them.
The executive branch is charged with enforcing the law—Bloomberg and the police are just doing their jobs. I can assure you they do their jobs where illegal immigrants are concerned, too. But they’re not going to search protesters for papers or arrest illegals in a charged situation like that.
@student oh sorry, I know furnald is usually very quiet. I’m sure if they knew you were trying to do you lit hum homework up there they would have moved down the block. But seriously, I hope you’ve got it done by now. That was a close one, huh?
@Jason Well, at least they made you wake up and thing about larger social issues for a change instead of ignoring them in sheep-like apathy. Wake up! Do something about the world, or it is going to go to hell.
Like Gandhi said, if we want a better world, we must create it ourselves.