Apr

6

BREAKING: Suspect Arrested in Student Death

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The AP is reporting that a suspect, a 13-year-old boy, has been arrested regarding the death of Columbia grad student Minghui Yu. He is reportedly being charged with second-degree manslaughter, but his name has not been released.

UPDATE (1:15 PM): According to The Daily News and Gothamist, the police now suspect that the boys who assaulted Yu did not intend to mug him.  From the DN: “We don’t believe it was robbery,” a police source said. “It was some sort of altercation.” The DN also has a witness saying that the 13 year old boasted “Look what I do to this one” before attacking Yu.

The NY Post reports that “Yu struggled with at least one of the teens, who punched him in the face, while the other kept watch, witnesses told police.”

The police are still searching for the second teenager.

UPDATE (1:40 PM):  Tags: , ,

180 Comments

  1. god  

    this is getting me so angry. why the fuck are 13 year olds doing stupid ass shit like this.

  2. should  

    he and/or his accomplice get tried as an adult?

    my inclination is 'no' but i'm on the fence. they did an abhorrent thing, but i don't think that the perpetrators of this crime knew the kind of damage that their actions would inflict on a young life, a family, and a community.

    i'm open to other interpretations of the events though

    May Minghui Yu rest in peace and may his family and friends find some end to their grief.

  3. 000000000000000  

    Ask yourselves, how would Yu's family feel towards this 13yr old? Would they be mad? Would they forgive?

    • well  

      considering they are responsible for the death of their only child, I would have to go with 'mad' although I think that word choice may just hint a little at your righteous morals.

  4. ddddddddddddd  

    i dont think it matters much whether or not the perpetrators knew the potential damage they would cause...they were beating him up (and who knows if they had any weapons), causing mr. yu to run across the street and to his death.. rip

  5. messed up

    Disappointing. Juvenile second-degree manslaughter? He'll probably get off with a few months.

    Then he'll be back on the street beating people up for NO reason.

    "Look what I do to this one" were his words upon starting to beat Mr. Yu up. Completely callous.

    This is a kid with deep antisocial tendencies. Unfortunately psychology does not have a cure or effective treatment for this violent illness, and certainly incarceration/punishment does not keep people from doing this again.

    But incarceration DOES isolate this sick sort of person from situations where he can do harm to others. Too bad our justice system is based in the 1750s.

    • emilyw

      of course, it doesn't isolate them from other criminals, so they often come out of jail more violent and better connected than they came in. SO they're more likely to go back to jail not because they're naturally antisocial people, but because the justice system has chosen to punish them by ensuring they end up back in jail.

      • messed up

        Um, I'm sorry, but you do not understand the psychological causes or symptoms of antisocial personality disorder, known in those under 16 as "conduct disorder."

        Those who are never caught remain just as violent as those who serve hard time. IT's not the fault of the criminal justice system. Most people who are subjected to the violence of jail but who are not antisocial will not become hardened criminals afterward because of the experience. That's just an 18th-century myth, not backed up by empirical evidence.

        What do you recommend be done to them instead of being put in jail? No meds or therapy in the world can keep antisocial people from disregarding human life and rights or get them to feel empathy toward others.

      • messed up

        If you don't believe me, emilyw, look at ethnographic accounts of people who were wrongly incarcerated.

        Those who didn't have rap sheets before being put in jail are often severely traumatized after being released, but not violent thugs. Rather, they actually become like caged animals, who once set free, never really feel free again.

        They develop Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, not Anti-Social Personality Disorder.

  6. law student

    2nd degree manslaughter for a 13 year old mugger is a bit hard. I don't think they can prove that the kid was AWARE OF AND CONSCIOUSLY DISREGARDED the possibility that Minghu might flee and be struck by a car and that such a risk was substantial.

    the 13 year old could have committed hundreds of muggings in the past where no one was struck by a car and certainly the city sees thousands of street-corner muggings and few-to-none ever result in victims being hit by speeding vehicles.

    New York State Penal Code:
    S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.
    A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:
    1. He recklessly causes the death of another person;
    (other two cases are assisted suicide and death by botched abortion)

    "Recklessly." A person acts recklessly with respect to a result or
    to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is
    aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk
    that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists. The risk
    must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a
    gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person
    would observe in the situation. A person who creates such a risk but is
    unaware thereof solely by reason of voluntary intoxication also acts
    recklessly with respect thereto.

    In NY State a 13 year old can only be tried as an adult for 2nd degree murder, not manslaughter.

    If he were somehow tried as an adult:
    (c) For a class C felony, the term shall be fixed by the court, and
    shall not exceed fifteen years;

  7. hmm

    Here's info from somone who claims to be a cop. Apparently the 15 year old has been caught too:

    "as someone not willing to admit that i'm not a copper, for your information, the two kids did it out of pure enjoyment-the 15 y/o admitted it. the 13 year-old is still proud that the 'chinese ***** is dead', as i'm typing this to you. the 15 y/o was laughing on the video as it was happening, and now he's 'sorrowful.' "

  8. To PresBo  

    Will you still say this is one of the safest precincts when these kids are let out of jail with little more than a slap on the wrist? Or will the University continue to ignore the need for security on its northern outskirts?

  9. good  

    this makes me so happy. i won't comment on what i think the punishment should be or whether he should be tried as an adult or a whatever. right now, i'm just glad that they caught him and that we'll see some sort of justice be served.

  10. hmmm  

    anti-social psychosis? ever think that if you have a society with shit-loads of poverty theres going to be attempted robberies? and saying shit like 'they probably had weapons on them' and the caustic vitriol being directed towards the SUSPECTS has undeniable racial undertones in our societal context. cue neoliberal indignation

    • wow

      They weren't trying to rob him, #18. They just wanted to beat up a Chinese kid. The kid "see what I do to this one" to the 15-year-old before beating him up.

      Regardless, you're really going to make that tired argument in New York State? New York State does everything it can to help out the poor members of society. We have free housing, food stamps, free universal healthcare, universal, decent public education, etcetera.

      Very few people in New York have to commit crimes to SURVIVE. To get a flat-screen, expensive new sneakers, or a new Benz, maybe, but are you going to tell me everybody is ENTITLED to those things?

      In your opinion, what more can be done in New York to end the so-called "shitloads of poverty"?

      We already have the most extensive welfare system in the U.S. What now?

    • suspects

      your "suspects" were caught on surveillance cameras and have already been caught.

      also, robbery is one thing. beating someone up, ganging up on them and kicking them when they're down is another thing. that sort of violence is above and beyond what most people, even most poor people are willing to do. yes, such callous disregard for other human beings is anti-social.

    • really

      are you trying to pull the racist card against those who suggest two people who're going to be charged with murder should have to pay a steep price? Not only is your 'they probably had weapons on them' inference to racism a ridiculously pc piece of crap that follows along the most pathetic sort of apologism and race baiting but its just inaccurate. There is almost certainly a correlation between violent criminals and possession of a weapon (not every weapon is a gun). And if these newer accounts are true, these two individuals are actually guilty of a hate crime because they specifically targeted Mr. Yu for being asian.

      Sadly, we wont see any marches for Mr. Yu because his murder won't fit into any grandiose narrative of a victim mentality.

      The fact these kids are unrepentant is disturbing to me if true. I still don't think a 13 year old should be charged as an adult because they probably don't have the reasoning capacity adults do, but make no mistake--these two are well on their way to becoming monsters (it may be because the society they were in made them that way, but the linchpin will always automatically be poverty despite the fact that you dont always find neat correlations between every poor demographic and youth crime [and there are illuminating examples amongst safe but poor towns of EVERY race]).

      And yes they are suspects until they are convicted--the evidence certainly looks overwhelming though considering their is actually visual evidence of them committing the crime. Don't feed us the suspects tripe like you actually care about the rule of law though--go back to advocating for tawana brawley and marching for madeline constatine. Our 'social context' is one that has been poisoned by race baiters and apologists like you.

  11. number 20

    sorry, i meant that your "suspects" have already confessed, and were caught on camera.

  12. blah

    Sounds like a Hate Crime to me. Oh, wait, the victim wasn't black. NEVER MIND.

  13. a couple other

    sources now claiming it might not have been a robbery

    and apologists, please don't pretend like you care for rule of law--if the roles were reversed there would already be marches

    http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=80203
    http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2008/04/06/2008-04-06_13yearold_boy_charged_in_death_of_columb.html
    http://gothamist.com/2008/04/06/13_year_old.php

  14. This  

    is disgusting. I hope those pieces of shit rot in jail. They probably won't though.

  15. execution  

    execute them

    • I agree  

      These kids will NEVER contribute anything positive to society--they will only eat up tax money in their incarceration and subsequent incarcerations, welfare, food stamps, etc. Everyone would be better off if they were dead. I wish they'd be executed.

  16. wow..  

    scary/telling how everyone is accepting that ridiculous source....

    • amazing

      how you're already characterizing it a 'ridiculous' source because it disagrees with the narrative you want

      the people who cite it have multiple independent press sources to back it up

      you're pathetic individual

    • dfgdgdfg

      Re: scary/telling how everyone is accepting that ridiculous source.

      IF YOU HAVENT READ THE NEWS - THE CITY ATTORNEY HAS TESTIFIED THAT THE KID WAS NOT REMORSEFUL, now, for him to say that, he must have seen some evidence, the kid's mother was shouting "he is only 14!", as if 14-yr-olds are not human beings that can think, why didn't that trash kill his own mother if he can't think???? it is just this kind of "tolerance" that has helped supply the society with juvenile criminals

  17. seriously  

    why is no one marching? this is obviously a hate crime. does the victim have to be black for anyone to care?

  18. oh boy

    God, I didn't know what a shitstorm I'd create by posting the info from the cop. Everyone please try to be reasonable.

    He told me that they already have the 15-year-old in custody too, which the newspapers haven't reported yet. If they don't report it by tomorrow's news cycle, I'd say we can discount him as a reliable source.

    However, the press is already reporting, as multiple posters have pointed out, that

    "the teenager actually bragged about his violent intentions prior to committing the attack on Yu.

    "Look what I do to this one,""
    That's from the UPI. If you're going to read racist overtones into people demanding that a violent criminal be locked up for good, you have to read racist overtones into that little gem.

    Again, we'll see when tomorrow's news cycle comes around.

  19. hmm  

    We need to consider when Yu was out walking. You don't go walking around in the dead of night by yourself that far up; its just stupid. You're asking to be mugged. So that's not to justify what the kids did, but it was (quite unfortunately) to be expected. So I don't see the courtroom taking the trial of these kids tremendously seriously because so many people are muggers and I'm sure they didn't think, if we mug this guy maybe he'll bolt into the street and die. They were looking to steal some money, and that's what they'll be punished for.

    • Are you an ethnic  

      studies major by any chance? Hey I know, maybe we should deconstruct the hierarchies of power that made these thugs commit this terrible crime????

      Reality Check. They weren't just looking to steal money you brainwashed moron, those racist thugs were also looking to beat the shit out of him just because he was Asian. Racist black people - does that blow your puny mind? Does...not..compute...BOOM!

      They are responsible for his death - period, and should be swiftly shot in the forehead because there's no way they can be made into normal human beings.

      Dear Columbia, please gentrify Harlem - it has no culture, black or otherwise - and kick all of this type of SCUM out of New York City. TYIA.

    • blatant apologism

      and girls shouldn't wear skimpy clothing because they're asking to raped right?

      the fact that you missed so many facts leads me to think this was a parody post.

      otherwise, you're probably an aarp member because i dont know anybody who considers 9 pm, 'the dead of night'

      also, multiple press sources are now pointing out the police are ruling out robbery as a motive--so no they werent looking to steal money- this was just horrific violence

      And your entire statement is a justitfication of this event and a grounds for excusing these miscreants--which says a lot about your character

    • wow

      Wow #38, could you be more stupid?

      It was 9 P.M., and he was in front of JTS. It's not 1977 South Bronx around here, exactly. When was the last time you were in NYC?

      I walk that stretch of Broadway every night, and I am not asking to be mugged, nor have I ever been.


      ONCE AGAIN: THEY WERE NOT ROBBING HIM THEY WERE NOT ROBBING HIM THEY WERE NOT ROBBING HIM

      • come on  

        How can anyone on this thread be so damn sure of the kids' motives already? So far we've only seen partial—and conflicting—accounts of what actually happened. Clearly those two fucked up royally and deserve to be punished to the fullest extent of the law, but you can't reliably determine a motive on such scant evidence.

        Maybe they maybe they meant to beat him up because he's Chinese, maybe they meant to mug him, maybe they meant to chase him in front of a car for sport. I don't know yet, and I don't think anyone else outside of the investigation does either.

    • you fucker  

      it was 9 pm, hardly the dead of night, and I am an Asian who frequently studies at UTS. So this one hits pretty hard at home you piece crap.

      And yes, he was Asian so there will be no public outcry.

  20. Excuse me  

    9 PM on a Friday is hardly the dead of night. The poor guy was just waiting for his bus, probably to AVOID walking around by himself at night. Also, there is a strong possibility that this was a hate crime, not just a mugging. These kids better get the maximum punishment possible.

    And I'm up for a march too.

  21. ummmmmmmmm  

    only if u consider 9 pm as the dead of night...which was when the bastards attacked him

  22. plus  

    NO MATTER wat time he was walking out at night, DO NOT give the inclination that it was in any way mr. yu's fault....because it wasnt

  23. ...

    Hey sorry, not to fan the flames, but I forgot to mention that the creepy thing about the "Look what I do to this one" quote from the UPI is that the "source" I talked to said the kid actually said "look what i do to this chinese n*gga"

    He told me this before the UPI press release came out, but it may or may not have been after the Daily News printed the quote, so I'm not sure if that corroborates his account.

    After Yu was hit by the car, the guy said the 13-year old made laughing gestures and said:
    "yo, son! this n*gga's dead!"

    Grain of salt, please.

  24. yoyoyo  

    "Dear Columbia, please gentrify Harlem - it has no culture, black or otherwise - and kick all of this type of SCUM out of New York City. TYIA."

    okay, see, this is out of hand. I'm sure there are plenty of anti-social fuckups where you are from, as well, but noone's suggesting erasing your town.

    • Um....  

      A) Gentrifying is not the same as nuking - I didn't say to erase Harlem, I said to gentrify it in order to get RID of the antisocial fuck ups.

      B) Sorry, where I'm from, 13 year old thugs do not mug and kill students

      C) The amount of crime in Harlem is obscene. Any predominantly white area with such a disgusting level of crime would be immediately targeted for improvement by city leaders. Since Harlem is full of minorities, however, it is politically incorrect - racist of course - to suggest improving. This refusal to acknowledge reality in the name of political correctness has lead to tragedy, as the poor family of Mr. Yu found out very recently.

      • right on  

        I totally agree with you on C). that's the attitude i find all the time when we give constructive criticism to blacks and they take it as racism.

        You know, even though Bill Cosby got a lot of bad rap for his comments on the attitudes of African Americans in the United States, I think he is the voice of reason among a group of people who are still playing the race card and not realize that they are the ones who dropped the ball first.

  25. Jeremy

    I know it's never going to happen, especially with his claiming he never stepped foot on Columbia soil, but -- in his speech on race, Obama said the following:

    "So when [white people] are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time."

    "I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."

  26. Ray  

    What the hell is this "anti-social" argument about? I'm from Philly (NOT the suburbs, but the actual city) and there are plenty of crimes committed by juveniles and kids in gangs. Heck, a bunch of students outside my high school were attacked in February, with one student sent to the hospital. These youth attackers/"criminals" work in groups and take joy from their doings. Psychology is not a problems; it's attitude. Once this 13-year-old is free from custody, his friends are all gonna boast about how he messed another guy up for good. Send him to juvenile detention/jail for a couple years and maybe his peers will think twice before continuing their pursuits.

    • spot on  

      Ray, you're absolutely right. Unless he's given a severe punishment, he's just going to be looked at as a hero by his community for being a tough thug and fucking up some poor grad student. Any hint of apologism towards these motherfuckers makes my blood boil.

  27. Relax  

    People, take a deep breath. Think about what you are all saying. First the problem was public housing. Let's put public housing on trial. Now the problem is all of Harlem itself. Yeah let's gentrify Harlem.
    I was involved in the counter-Hunger Strike demonstration; I'm not black; no I'm not an Ethnic-Studies major, and yes I plan to work on Wall Street. I am not an apologist & I despise thug culture.

    The test of our character and intellect is how we respond to times of tragedy like these. Why is America at war in Iraq? Did 9/11 cloud our judgment and make us overreact? In the heat of our panic and anger, did we forget to look at evidence?

    In the heat of this racially charged tragedy, are we forgetting to look at the facts? Is it right to propose entirely changing a highly populated neighborhood, rich in history & culture (but also containing several bad elements) because of the actions of two teenage fucktards? Is it right to let the unverified testimony of this may-or-may-not-be cop rile us up to this level of rage & hatred? Has our fear from this incident given free expression on this thread to those elements on campus who finnd satisfaction in the bias incidents that have occurred? Maintain your dignity for God's sake, and remember not to let the prejudices of a juvenile delinquent change our own views on an entire community of people.

    This is a time for grief, not anger. As the facts become clearer, let them determine our anger and our response.

    • you're kind of

      everywhere in this post[9/11 has nothing to do with and trying to create some type of dichotomy of racists who took pride in on campus bias incidents is a highly disingenuous equivocation] (by teh way the earlier obama post was irrelevant and non sequitir) but you do make a good point--the community around columbia is generally and largely filled with hard working, honest, good people of all races

      however, it is foolish to deny that there may be problems within that same community--the fact that people are angry right now at one of those problems isn't just an emotional response, but is the natural consequence of one of those problems manifesting itself in an incredibly serious and tragic manner

      looking at facts works both ways and should apply both to those willing to smear and entire race upon the actions of a few and to those who will apologize to their last breath for actions from one segment of society regardless of their depravity

      also, please strike out that "has our fear from this incident given free expression on this thread to those elements on campus who finnd satisfaction in the bias incidents that have occurred?" part from your post because it seems to refute your entiree second paragraph and makes you look like a complete idiot-the equivocation suggested by it is repulsive

      the bias incidents of the campus consist of madeline constantine, anti semitic graffiti on walls and things which even put togther don't suggest a larger problem in teh campus---this tragic act is only one incident of a pervasive and recurring problem in this local area and you can check local crime reports to confirm that

      • You're kind of  

        deluded. After incidents like this & the Hunger strike, are you telling me that there wasn't a slew of racially charged comments on Bwog, that in any other situation, would have been deemed out of line? The Hunger Strikers' irrationality allowed a bunch of people to post racially charged bullshit on Bwog without fear of condemnation, knowing everybody was so wound up that they would go unnoticed. If we react stupidly and extrapolate this incident to a larger systemic problem without due consideration of the facts, those kinds of people will again be allowed to rear their ugly heads in the discussion & drive it to extremes. So the people I'm referring to are the minority of Campus Racists that do, in fact exist - maybe bias incident fans is the wrong characterization, but you know who I'm talking about.

        Anyways, most people calling for the gentrification of Harlem and screaming about the Hypocrisy of racial finger-pointing absolutely did not give a shit about racism towards the Asian community. It's like when Fox news became champions of the gay community when Ahmadinejad visited.

        Again, all I'm saying is keep your fucking composure, and don't make stupid generalizations & large policy suggestions without thinking long and hard.

        • maybe  

          the fact that "racially charged bullshit" could be posted "without fear of condemnation", and has been posted in this very thread with much less condemnation than comment 18, suggests that the hunger strikes weren't entirely wrong in seeing a larger problem at Columbia

        • i'm deluded?

          you even admit in your own statement that under any other circumstances some of the comments here wouldn't be acceptable--however the fact is we do have a dead student in this case and the culprits are two local youths. the fact that there is an emotional response is no less surprising then when we had marches after the noose went up.

          there certainly are likely a small number of people who do try to provoke stupidly racist reactions or take hold of issues for their own deluded social engineering views but most adults recognize those trolls for what they are and unlike you don't try to lump in legitimate discussions about racial tensions within incidents like this where it may be a true case of a hate crime or where there may be a larger sociological/race based issue

          and yeah, a lot of people probably werent anti asian discrimination activists before this but the reason they are up in arms over this isn't just 'asian discrimination'. its universal, 'some poor columbia student who worked his butt off to try to make a good life for himself and wanted to contribute to the world in someway didn't deserve to die at the hands of bigots' outrage adn in this particular case applies to an asian person who was the victim.

          its the universality of not having someone treated in an unjust and inhumane way--adn that was the same reason why you saw groups that you wouldn't' suspect supportign protests of ahmadinejad (though in your disgusting little world your own charicatures of fox news and probably half of middle america suggests you see them as wholly bigoted trogdolytes)

          there are certainly racists on this campus or at least those who are very prejudiced

          there are also idiots who are the exact equivalent on the other side

          • Yeah?  

            What makes you think you're qualified enough to have a "legitimate" argument about racial tensions? You're assuming this is a hate crime on the testimony of one may-or-may-not-be-cop speaking to an anonymous bwog commenter. It may well turn out to be true, but then again it might not. It's very dangerous to make this into a larger discussion about Racial problems and fan racial tensions, when we don't fully know the facts yet.

            Yes, the Black community needs to actively address issues of poverty, education and crime; but just because you're in the same college as the victim, you're suddenly qualified to tell them what Public policies are appropriate for their community, & how they shoudl behave? Get real.

            Case in point: You spun my Fox News analogy and assumed that I consider all of Middle America to be bigots. What a dumbass you are. Don't talk beyond what you know.

    • anonymous

      "Harlem should be gentrified" is true only to the extent that gentrification would be the natural consequence if we got rid of the public/subsidized housing, something we shouldn't be supporting with tax money anyway, and appropriately policed the area, which we should be doing anyway.

      Although this incident is not in itself a reason to gentrify Harlem, it is a good example of the problems that arise when people insist on using the government to actually maintain the impoverished and dangerous state of a neighborhood in the name of "preserving culture".

      I don't have any desire to destroy Harlem culture (assuming we don't consider violence a part of that culture). But I also recognize that I have no duty to preserve it if it cannot survive on its own - that is, without misguided gov't officials using tax dollars to keep it going beyond its natural lifespan.

  28. points  

    1) This is a terrible tragedy and these teens are terrible people

    2) We don't know yet whether this was a hate crime (someone in Bwog comments who claims to have talked to someone who claims to be a cop isn't really a reliable source), but if it was there certainly needs to be a collective response like a march

    3) Comment #38 is so completely idiotic and disgusting that its almost certainly the work of a troll - though the lack of sincerity doesn't excuse anything

    4) Diagnosing these teens with some sort of named psychological disorder over the internet based on a short newspaper article and using this to assert that they'll never change from the way they behave at 13 & 15 is really pretty dumb

    5) Comment #18 is well justified in seeing racism in Bwog comments. In this thread and the other, we have a whole crowd of people who are condemning a whole neighborhood as criminal and therefore worthless, insisting that anyone who doesn't see one incident as justification for a massive increase in Columbia security is blinded by political correctness, and attacking, with relevance left implicit, Christien Tompkins (who I think is being confused with Anthony Kelley). It is telling, in an unfortunate way, that none of this has provoked anywhere near as much outrage from other commenters as the accusation of racism

    6) Poverty, in itself, is not much of an explanation for crimes like this, but I don't understand how anyone who attends Columbia could possibly think that New York has somehow eliminated real poverty, or anything close. Do people somehow prevent themselves from even seeing all the homeless people?

    • a couple responses

      1) obviously
      2)the comment and motives are now also cited in multiple press pieces--this point loses a bit of its merit as a result even though i agree anon bwog commentators are a completely unreliable source
      3)i hope it it a troll who wrote 38 though i suspect it is not
      4)i agree that psychological diagnosis or writing of a kids future is hasty--part of this is due to the visceral emotion of the entire situation
      5)this is what i dont understand--there are obviously one or two idiotic commentators who are saying gentrify the entire neighborhood or other emotionally tinged stupid/racist statements. however, the vast majority of comments have pointed out a pervasive problem with crime in the surrounding community--in the last thread other crimes were even listed

      the attacks on race baiters who are claiming all those who criticize are racists or who try to minimize the culprits roles here are completely warranted because they not only ignore the entire problem but also try to claim some sort of reverse victimhood--excusing such crimes is precisely what fits into this narrative

      we've had people equating the now suspicious madaleine constantine/grafitti/on campus incidents as some sort of parallel of this! I'm sorry but that is an absurd comparison and is more repulsive than was are obviously emotionally charged reactions in what could possibly be a hate crime. I can guarantee you that you werent condemning overreactions when the jena 6 protests arose.

      As for greater security, again this is ignoring a larger picure which has developed locally. East of morningside park is a dangerous area. In teh past 4/5 years we've had a rape, one murder at a local bar, another drive by shooting at a local bar, dozens of muggings/robberies/assaults and now this tragedy. I do not fault a single person for feeling unsafe in that environment. If graffiti and symbols can rightfully inspire the need for safe spaces, how can you belittle fear of being murdered/raped/mugged?

      6)This is a much larger issue in terms of how poverty contributed to the local crime situation, how effectively poverty is being dealt with etc. However, if you look at some of the records of crimes it becaomes clear these are crimes by homeless for subsistence--a lot of these crimes are uncontrolled kids who are creating trouble for their own reasons or who want to steal luxury items--which is an entirely different case altogether.

    • hey there

      "Poverty, in itself, is not much of an explanation for crimes like this, but I don't understand how anyone who attends Columbia could possibly think that New York has somehow eliminated real poverty, or anything close. Do people somehow prevent themselves from even seeing all the homeless people?"

      The government of New York City is required by the courts to provide those homeless people with shelter. If they are out on the streets, it is because they refuse to accept the help from social outreach workers. That's the point. No matter how many well-intentioned programs we put into place, social ills cannot be completely eliminated.

  29. The King of Spain

    Indeed, the logic that the criminals represent the nighborhood (laughable, they probably came from harassing a grandma) is the same shrill logic that let the hunger-striking set blame all of Columbia for the racism of a few assholes.

    But many people have noted that NYS spends large amounts of money trying to alleviate the poverty. The problem is, in a democratic society, there is only so much they can do. The social problems and malignant culture that spawned these kids will not be solved by better housing or foodstamps.

    • NY is  

      really far from the maximum a democratic society could do against poverty. compare it to pretty much any country in europe...

      • hahahha  

        yeah, because Europe is really devoid of racism and crime. Get a fucking clue.

      • ORLY?

        #68, PLEASE do tell us what they do in utopian Europe that is not done in NYC to "alleviate poverty" (as if it were a terminal illness!).

        --Free housing, constitutionally guaranteed, in the most crowded city in the hemisphere?
        Check!

        --Free food?
        Check!

        --Free universal healthcare?
        Check!

        --Monthly checks to low-income single mothers?
        Check!

        --Access to a world-class education system?
        Check! (e.g., Stuyvesant HS)

        --Affirmative action and non-discriminatory policies?
        Check!

        Please, #68, also come out on the record as saying that "poverty" made them do it!

        • Stuy '02

          Interesting example, since Stuyvesant bases its acceptance policy entirely on the Specialized High Schools Admissions Test. A typical incoming class is ~50% Asian and ~40% White. What was that about affirmative action, again?

          • name

            The point is that a poor black kid from the projects can get in, if he does well on the SH SAT. No racism.

            As a poor minority kid who was able to pass my tests. I know it's possible

  30. Clarification  

    Okay, apologies for confusion: I am not comparing this incident in anyway to the Bias incidents on campus; I was referring to a minority of people - the campus racist scum - who probably perpetrated & enjoyed seeing Columbia polarized and divided along racial lines. That's it. Don't let those people have a voice in this dialog. That is the extent of my comparison; I should have been clearer.

  31. An UWS resident

    This is a very sad commentary on 2 black adolescents. Some ironies noted: incident took place a block from Columbia's School of Social Work and a major Jewish seminary.

    If these 2 places want field work on social evils of their neighborhood, it's right there.

    What Asians need is their own big-mouthed Al Sharpton to stand at the corner and condemn violence towards Asians.

  32. whatever

    i'm done talking about race based discussions/other tangents


    at this point this thread (maybe i'm partially at fault for responding) is veering away from teh actual tragedy

  33. HOLD UP  

    WHAT ABOUT THE KID'S PARENTS. WHY IS YOUR 13 OR 15 YEAR OLD SON OUT AT 9 PM ON 122 AND BROADWAY FUCKING WITH PEOPLE?

    THE KIDS SHOULD GET A SENTENCE. THE PARENTS SHOULD GET A GREATER ONE.

    WHEN I WAS 13, I WASN'T ALLOWED TO BE OUT PAST DARK. IF THEIR PARENTS ACTUALLY GAVE A SHIT, THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

    I AM ALSO APPALLED BY THE AMOUNT OF HATE I AM READING IN THESE COMMENTS. I hope you are all just angry and don't think like this.

  34. gentrification  

    (and columbia's role in the neighborhood) fans the flames for attacks like this; it doesn't solve them -- in the same way that the war on terror has led to higher recruitment numbers for terrorist groups rather than an end to all terrorism.

    the whole situation is tragic as hell. my prayers go to yu's family.

  35. anonymous

    "this is what i dont understand--there are obviously one or two idiotic commentators who are saying gentrify the entire neighborhood or other emotionally tinged stupid/racist statements."

    Calling for the gentrification of the neighborhood isn't racist. Wanting to better police the neighborhood and get rid of criminals isn't racist - that's just smart. Wanting to fix the neighborhood up and make it a nice place to live isn't racist either - it's a very nice idea actually.

  36. saw this  

    on [email protected]:

    http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/rnr/632498178.html

    • holy shit  

      exceptionally well-written and SPOT ON.

    • can't agree more  

      my parents started with nothing and busted their asses off to get to where we are today...without relying on welfare (because we're not given any benefits) and envying and bullying others. not fucking fair...the gov't needs to stop helping these people

      • '11  

        Same here. That craigslist post was amazing.

        • jpm  

          no, no, that post wasn't amazing. it's a major parsing to the 'failure' of the welfare state from one act of horrific violence. the argument comes from an angry, bigoted point of view and it's an uncalled-for addition to the conversation.

          it's one thing to use this tragedy to confront liberal apologism, but can we leave out the Reagan-era denial of institutionalized racism?

  37. ok.

    one last bit. please read the news articles

    the idea this may be hate motivated isn't from a bwog commentator--you've obviously just came on here to muck up controversy because there are multiple sources suggesting it may have been motivated by soemthing other than robbery

    and as a member of a university which is in the middle and part of the community i wholly reserve the right to criticize elements, action and problems of the community that make me feel unsafe--just as anybody in a community can--nice try on the race bait

    finally, the foxnews leap wasn't a big one. you came in an criticized those who are disgusted at the notion this might have been a hate crime by tryign to delegitimize their ownership of the incident upon ethnic lines. you then spun a retarded analogy about how fox news and that demographic were anti ahmadinejad despite the charicature you obviously have of them (remember in iran, there are documented cases of government executions of gays)--don't blame me for calling you on it

    as for the craigslist post please. i almost hurled at the claim the blood is on the hands of rangel--i'm sure a guy who's worked hard for this district wanted this to happen

    i'm out of this thread

  38. how is that  

    spot on?? the man actually wrote "a generation of low-achieving savages" -- not just the two youths responsible, a *whole generation*.

    i understand he's angry at the loss of his friend; i understand that a lot of people are angry right now. but a whole generation of savages? this kind of divisiveness is simply not acceptable. it fuels hatred, not stops it.

    • it is spot on  

      We are dealing with an entire generation of these people. This is not an isolated incident: violence is often committed by poor African-Americans whose lives are basically subsidized by the government. It is epidemic and we need to start discussing the problem in those terms, however uncomfortable.

  39. last response  

    yeah we need to stop this hijacking of the thread - thats part of the problem with the racially-sketchy comments, after all. im just going to respond to one of the sections of #71, and then im done.

    "the vast majority of comments have pointed out a pervasive problem with crime in the surrounding community--in the last thread other crimes were even listed"

    well, in the last thread and this, I'm seeing a lot of comments like:

    **"Dear Columbians: This is what happens when you support public housing. Please stop."

    **"This is obviously caused by the decades of oppression that the Asian man has inflicted on the Black man."

    **"It makes me so angry that just because a couple of violent black thugs want a fucking iPod, they're willing to kill a man for it."

    **"continue to place my faith in empirical evidence and statistical analysis by keeping a suspicious eye on all black thugs I see in the streets. God bless gentrification."

    **"preserve thug culture -- stop columbia expansion!"

    **"Given that the community likes to mug and kill Columbians, I think it's high time that Columbia said the following to the community: "Fuck You!"

    **"Sounds like a Hate Crime to me. Oh, wait, the victim wasn't black. NEVER MIND."

    **"These kids will NEVER contribute anything positive to society--they will only eat up tax money in their incarceration and subsequent incarcerations, welfare, food stamps, etc. Everyone would be better off if they were dead. I wish they'd be executed."

    **"Dear Columbia, please gentrify Harlem - it has no culture, black or otherwise - and kick all of this type of SCUM out of New York City. TYIA."

    the level of resentment against black people and the Harlem community seems to be pretty high. check out the way the suspects' race is always mentioned (vs say their gender, which is probably better correlated with this kind of crime), or the repeated use of the racially-tinged word "thug", rather than some equally condemnatory but racially neutral word like "murderer" or "psychopath" or just "asshole". and then of course there's the demands for comment from Anthony Kelley and Christien Tompkins, who have no relation to the crime except that they're black. (if it was that they were leftists, why not David Judd or Karina Garcia, otherwise Bwog hate favorites?)

    "race baiters who are claiming all those who criticize are racists or who try to minimize the culprits roles"

    i dont think anyone has either claimed everyone who's angry at these murderers is a racist, or tried to minimize their roles. even comment #18 does neither (these kids' responsibility is not mutually exclusive with any social context).

    "we've had people equating the now suspicious madaleine constantine/grafitti/on campus incidents as some sort of parallel of this!"

    in fact we haven't. comment #72 clarifies, though i think it was already clear enough.

    "As for greater security... East of morningside park is a dangerous area."

    i'm not saying that there's anything wrong with calling for greater security. i *am* saying that there are reasons to doubt that this crime proves we need greater security besides "political correctness". it's one incident, which may or may not be part of a statistical pattern; it may or may not be clear how security could be increased in a way likely to prevent future incidents which are unlikely to have identical circumstances; there may be unreasonable costs, financial or otherwise, to increased security. whether or not any of those arguments is valid, none relies on "political correctness".

    • you bring up some

      good points and some points i clearly but would politely like to disagree with (some of the things you characterize as resentment i feel are valid statements, the campus bias incidents that also stretch back to the last thread, some of the other local crimes and incidents which were documented in the last thread which i do think call for a questioning of security, and the male/female vs racial correlation is probably not a better one like you assume) but i'm not going to post a response here

      i'm sure there will be talk on campus about these issues and who knows, maybe bwog will allow an adults only comment thread on some of these sensitive issues at which point i'd welcome talkign to those who may have differing opinions but like you i have no more interest of continuing what are now derivative discussions on a post about a particular and tragic incident

  40. idea  

    is APAAM doing anything regarding this event? i think if BSO collaborated, we could both appropriately remember minghui and help mitigate a lot of the anti-black rhetoric being thrown around.

  41. Thomas Sowell  

    is black and a Columbia grad to boot. His article says everything perfectly:

    http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110006608

    • Bingo  

      From the Sowell article:

      "The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct."

      I think this is where the problem lies. We need to separate "authentic black culture" from this so-called "redneck" culture. That way, we can preserve Harlem and the aspects of black culture that are truly worth preserving without accidentally keeping the violence and thug culture in the same bundle.

      As to how we can do this, I'm completely lost. Anyone care to offer suggestions?

      (This post is not meant to be sarcastic at all. I'm genuinely trying to figure out a solution to the situation, which has turned out to be a far larger problem than I anticipated. I'm feeling helpless right now, and the grief of the loss of one of our students adds to the pain.)

  42. holy crap

    That craigslist posting looks like it could've been written by me. But it's not. Crazy that anyone shares my opinions.

    I've actually mentioned the free housing, welfare, etc. twice on this site, once on a post in this thread, and once in a post on the last thread.

    Crazy.

  43. I just want

    to express my sympathy for the driver of the SUV. No need to say it was no fault of his or her that any of this happened. I can't imagine what this feels like. My utmost condolences to Mr. Yu's family and although I never knew Mr. Yu, I still feel his absence.

  44. minority student

    "it's one thing to use this tragedy to confront liberal apologism, but can we leave out the Reagan-era denial of institutionalized racism?"

    New York City is institutionally racist? Wha?

    Or did you mean Columbia?

  45. argh  

    Boy, it pisses me off when people confuse correlation with causation. Is there a higher crime rate among blacks than among the general population in the U.S.? Yes. Does that mean these two fools attacked Minghui because they were black? No.

    White people have been known to mug, murder, and accept welfare, too, but how often does the explanation 'they did it because they're white' gain traction?

    Do you really think there's something intrinsically different about people with dark skin that incline them to be poor or commit crimes? Or do you think maybe there are other factors contributing to the disproportionate poverty and crime rate among blacks like, I don't know, the crippling legacy of slavery, segregation, and ill-conceived social welfare programs? I'm not trying to excuse any individual incident -- criminals deserve to be punished for their crimes -- but it's useful to examine broader social phenomena rather than spew racist filth.

    Yes, there are plenty of ailing social programs that need retooling. And yes, it's fair to call on people to be more responsible about how they raise their children (in fact, I wish the parents of some of my classmates had heeded that advice). But the "blacks are ungrateful!" bit is ludicrous. The 'black community' is not a monolith, nor has history cut it a whole lot of slack.

    You try pulling yourself up by your bootstraps when you're stuck with a crappy income, little economic activity, terrible housing/schools, and ingrained racist tendencies (among Ivy League students, for example). Do you really think people want or choose to live under those circumstances?

    • McFister

      I agree with you that it's important to look at the causes but it is also important to look at the event itself. The choice of victim was simple and based on a racist notion that Asians and whites are meek and won't fight back. Same think with the kid from NYU who was chased into traffic "Get the white guy."

    • u piss me off  

      my parents came to america legally with absolutely nothing..they had to borrow money to come here so they were actually in debt, my mom began by babysitting for $2/hr (this is 1990s) and my dad spent every waking minute studying in school....they worked their butts off to make a modest living....those people sucking up welfare and doing nothing but commit crimes, they have no excuse - those ppl need to get off their lazy ass and do something about it. helping those ppl have not helped anyone...basically throwing away hard earned tax money

      • argh x2  

        First, your parents deserve to be congratulated -- clearly that's a tremendous feat. But your mistake is in assuming that everyone (or even most people) born into poverty can automatically do the same. Plenty of inner city blacks have, in fact, worked their way into relative affluence, but it goes against sociological (statistical, etc.) reality to say that everyone in a given community/ethnicity/race can achieve the same. Lots of Ivy League grads will make 7 figures when they grow up, but not all of them can. It's not possible.

        Second, I'm not excusing anyone's crimes. The morons who attacked Minghui deserved to be punished like any other criminal.

        But third, you're awfully dense if you think environmental and historical factors -- poverty, ghettoization, racism, etc. -- don't contribute to higher crime rates. Otherwise, how do you account for that correlation? Do you actually think people with dark skin are intrinsically evil or more prone to commit crimes? Or that wealthy and white people don't violent crimes as much because they're inherently good?

        And is it really just an odd coincidence that the decedents of people hauled over to the U.S. in ships and subject to forced labor, and later of people shot down with fire hoses and legally discriminated against just a few decades ago, are disproportionately poor? Maybe you're just not a big fan of causality?

        God knows I'm not shilling for the current welfare system -- I think it needs some major, major reform. And yeah, like any other institution, there are people gaming it. But I'm tired of fucktards who advocate bulldozing Harlem because of violent crime or because it's clearly the black community's lone fault that it's poor or whatever other dismissive banalities they can throw out.

        • i never said  

          anything about bulldozing harlem or that environmental or historical factors dont contribute to crime rates or that black people are intrinsically evil because theyre black because i dont believe that... stop putting words in my mouth

          what I'm saying is people on welfare don't need to bust their ass off to make 7 figures, but at least educate their kids so they don't become the thugs that so many people see on the streets, and yes the welfare system needs to be changed

          • argh x3  

            I didn't mean to imply that you said any of those things (though sadly, some on this board have, hence the exasperation). I was using a proof by contradiction to show that just because your parents worked their way up, impressive as that is, doesn't mean everyone can do the same.

            Also, I didn't say that anyone thinks inner city blacks should all be earning 7 figures. I was arguing that it's mathematically impossible for everyone to achieve above average success.

        • that's  

          what i meant by institutional racism, but didn't have the time to explain

        • hahaha  

          Apparently you are a sociology major who took stats for retards.

          What was this about causation and correlation, you have hardly proved that just because their ancestors were slaves it means that they are now more likely to be thugs and gangbangers.

          A counter example are the Chinese who came over here as indentured servants to the build railroads, and still managed to eek out a living.

          I would venture that the cause behind these black ghettos with stagnant generational instances of poverty has far more to due with their cultural values than the supposed hand waving that slavery back in the day is now responsible for their current state a century plus on.


          The immigrants who came through the ages and worked the shit jobs, saving every penny in order to raise there kids with better lives, all the while being called a chink, kike or mick and other such things still made it in far greater numbers than the number of poor blacks from the ghetto. it was their cultural standards that enabled all of us immigrants to succeed regardless of the prejudices that we were subjected to.

    • what's with this

      Talk about working yourself up by the bootstrap, #106?! Shows how disconnected you are from Working-class (note: not Welfare-class) life.

      My parents came to america ILLEGALLY with absolutely nothing...

      in other words, the full force and authority of the federal government was working against them getting a job...

      not to mention any racism like you mention, #106.

      they spoke no english, had no relatives here, busted their asses, and were able to secure a lower-middle-class living and send their kids off to college.

      I know dozens of people in my old neighborhood with similar stories.

      • hooray!  

        horatio alger lives! long live the great american meritocracy!

        • random words

          Hey #118, I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but I guess I myself am more "Wall Street" (the movie) than Horatio Alger (hopefully I won't end up in jail though).

          But yes, my post was sincere, and I guess Horatio Alger fits--right down to my parents becoming lower-middle-class.

          I really don't think the lower-middle-class life is all that bad, even if you never have a big-screen TV or a luxury sedan or designer clothing.

  46. McFister

    If we were armed and they knew we were armed, these kinds of attacks wouldn't happen. Black kids in this neighborhood make sport of whites and Asians because they know we cannot or fight back.

  47. nice troll

    nice troll, mcfister

  48. i just realized

    i just realized that nearly everyone who posted on this thread, including me, is an idiot.

    i got really worked up and my blood got a-boiling over this story. the whole situation just sucks.

    mea culpa. mea culpa. mea maxima culpa.

  49. Death Penalty

    for that fucker.
    There are plenty of disadvantaged blacks, Asians and whites who've pulled themselves out of far worse situations than being on welfare. Friday night's event wasn't even a case of robbery for food money or drugs. It was a case of a malicious animal picking easy prey. I don't whether he's black or white. He's an animal, and deserves to be put down like one.

    • and btw

      before you bring on your cries of racism and other bullshit, I'd like to echo 113's comments. I came here with my parents with $200 in our cumulative pockets. We made something of ourselves. And before that we lived in a country where you could not go to college if you had too much of a Jew-nose. And you could not get a PhD because your passport said "Jew." And unlike here, where these assholes riot every time a murderer is "unjustly" shot in the streets, back there we didn't have Rev. Jesse Jackson to cause a riot when a group of antisemitic bastards tried to kick your ass after school. And guess what, my family fought their way to respect and to some measure of success, and we didn't become petty criminals or murderers. And neither did any of our relatives or just-as-Jewish friends. So don't come to me with your gentrification and slavery crap, because you don't know SHIT. Of all places on this earth, this is the one country where those excuses just don't fly.

      • I am Jewish  

        you embarrass me.

        • Embarassed?!?!?  

          Why the FUCK are you embarrassed, you utter moron? His post is SPOT ON. I guess it must be hard for you to grasp the fact that hard work in America DOES pay off, while sitting all day in front of a government-subsidized TV in a government-funded apartment wearing $600 Fubu Jackets and mugging hard-working Asian grad students does not.

          As an American, and especially as a Jew, you should be PROUD, not EMBARRASSED, of the fact that his parents succeeded in America in the face of adversity. From your attitude, I can tell that your parents were never beat up after school or denied admission to colleges because, according to everyone around them, they were nothing but dirty "kikes".

          Oh, and lastly, you fucking delusional cunt and pathetic excuse for an American, I KNOW that #115 is completely right because my parents went through the EXACT SAME FUCKING experience.

          • damn dude...  

            there is a huge difference between the experience of blacks in america and jews around the world. i am not saying that one is worse than the other, but these are not comparable. so please, calm down.

            hard work doesn't always pay off. you should read the book nickel and dimed, which is full of examples of hard working people who are drowning in this country.

            it is very easy for you to make these types of generalizations from the position you are in. keep in mind that your view is biased.

            so don't hate on someone who is embarrassed by the types of statements that you and that other post were making. the remarks used stereotypes and ridiculous generalizations that even managed to call the effects of slavery in america bullshit. im embarrassed to even go to the same college as you.

  50. how...  

    ...big were the kids?

    Because I am having a hard time picturing a scenario in which a fully-grown man couldn't kick the shit out of a thirteen year old. "Anti-social" or not.

    • umm...  

      a fully grown man can be about the same size as a teenager, plus it was probably a surprise attack - how would mr. yu know that they were teenagers? he didn't want to fight, all he wanted to do was save himself..

      bottom line, ur question shouldnt even have been asked

  51. continued  

    (these 'anti-social' gangbangers, of course, proving the rule....)

  52. random words

    And as for my soul-sucking future career, there are three ways to live in Manhattan, and the other two are receiving housing subsidies and being a well-connected and/or longtime rent stabilized tenant.

    Doesn't mean I think that my family was entitled to live in Manhattan when I was a kid. We would never have accepted handouts from the government.

  53. 130

    OK, #129, but it's NOT mathematically impossible for (nearly) everyone to have a job and achieve slightly below average success. Look at Japan.

    Like I said before, having grown up in a lower middle class household, it's not the end of the world.

    You can feed your family, put a roof over their head, and even send them to college in this country.

    Racism or no racism, this is not out of reach of the average ghetto-dweller, as long as they are willing to humbly work hard to get ahead.

    The truth of this statement is confirmed by the hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants to America that do just that every single year.

    In New York State, people are given so many safety nets. Yet instead of getting them back on their feet, it just creates an underclass beholden to ghetto demagogues like Rangel and Councilman Charles Barron in Brooklyn.

  54. DHI  

    Man I don't even want to step into this thread, but goddamn, success against odds is pretty dependent on luck as well as work and skill. Congratulations for your families. It doesn't always work out like that, though.

    • Hey DHI

      You must be pretty divorced from reality if you think getting a job to feed and house your family is dependent on luck.

      Most people have luck enough to do this without depending on welfare. It's not that hard to get a job at a restaurant or factory.

      Hell, I held on to a restaurant job for 2 years, and I was an incompetent boob.

      • DHI  

        Yes, I was married to reality but then I fucked her sister.

        This is why I don't want to get involved in this shit. I'm going to make quick points though:

        Restaurant jobs are much easier to get if you have a clean appearance and are young, factory jobs are harder and harder to get, all jobs are easier to get when you have a clean record or an employer thinks of you as being part of a community that he thinks of as hard workers, and mostly it takes luck to grow up in a situation where you can afford to make mistakes as a kid and can get good advice.

        My only real point, though, is that if you have contempt for other people just because you succeeded, your bitter ass can eat a dick.

  55. It is

    far easier to go on hollerin' about racism and how unfair the white man is, than to go out and get a job. Especially because welfare pays for you to yell in the streets and sit on your ass, whereas a job pays for you to, you know, do some kind of work. I think as someone who works my ass off on a daily basis, and comes from a family who has done the same for generations, I am fully justified in having contempt for people who do not work and contribute only violence and hatred to our society. And just as I do what I can to give extra tips to the delivery guys, I would just as quickly support the extermination of their neighbors who refuse to work and yet still manage to wear FUBU jackets that cost more than half my wardrobe.

  56. adfdfsa

    yes, educate your kids. it doesn't take a lot to teach the most basic common human decency.




    Of course there's a billion arguments saying parents from certain socioeconomic classes don't have time to educate their kids, or don't know how because they weren't raised the same way.

    But come on...

  57. holler to that  

    if you don't have the 'time' or 'means' to do teach your kids not to be assholes, then don't procreate.

  58. Also  

    Why is it such a big deal if people who can't survive on their own just die? I mean, really?

  59. EAL  

    #138 is clearly Anthony Kelley.

  60. factcheck  

    nobody wears fubu anymore and i don't think they make $600 jackets.

  61. also  

    my grandmother had relatives that died in the holocaust and my grandfather grew up dirt-poor and constantly had to fight off gangs of kids who attacked him for being jewish. that experience didn't make him hateful and elitist.

  62. btmafia

    I actually know the 13 year old boy being charged. He stayed to himself and wasn't the type to do things like that.

  63. question  

    so is the kid they arrested the huge one in the pics that are in all the dorms, or the one to the side.have they arrested both kids yet?

  64. facts  

    are occasionally useful things.

    "By international standards, the United States has an unusually low level of intergenerational mobility: our parents’ income is highly predictive of our incomes as adults. Intergenerational mobility in the United States is lower than in France, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Norway and Denmark. Among high-income countries for which comparable estimates are available, only the United Kingdom had a lower rate of mobility than the United States."
    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2006/04/b1579981.html

    "We perform a field experiment to measure racial discrimination in the labor market. We respond with fictitious resumes to help-wanted ads in Boston and Chicago newspapers. To manipulate perception of race, each resume is assigned either a very African American sounding name or a very White sounding name. The results show significant discrimination against African-American names: White names receive 50 percent more callbacks for interviews. We also find that race affects the benefits of a better resume."
    http://papers.nber.org/papers/w9873

    but let none of this prevent more rants from people about how their parents' stories prove poverty and racism are no obstacles to achievement in America!

  65. Anonymous  

    I love people decide to use this incident to fuel their racism and dislike for Harlem. Do you actually think Charles Rangel (if you know who he is) and everyone in Harlem are celebrating this event? Do you actually think everyone who lives in a project commits crimes? Based on your posts it is evident that not only have you never stepped foot anywhere north of 125th street, you've also never read a legitimate book or article about the history of Harlem or poverty, for that matter. Why don't you do yourselves a favor and go back to your fucking western white male dominated collection of books and abstain from making any social commentaries about shit you clearly haven't a clue about.

  66. Anonymous  

    PS. For those of you who clearly know nothing about public assistance in New York City, a family of three receives about $573/month. This is hardly enough for the $700 Fubu jacket someone mentioned. And for food stamps that same family could receive $426/month. Our meal plans average at about $2200/semester, which is about $550/month. So before you start saying shit, fucking learn to google, moron.

    • umm

      our meal plans are based on a $5 turkey sandwich. I did some math after grocery shopping with my suitemates. All told, a *steak* dinner (with salad, several sides, and drinks) for 6 people averaged between 3 and 5 dollars per person. I will let your undoubtedly solid math skills do the calculation for 1 month. Keep in mind that not every meal is that expensive, and leftovers are technically edible. So don't go comparing a college's meal plan to what real food costs.

      I still think anyone in our community who is even remotely trying to justify (by any means -- social, political, racial, etc.) deserves to get the living shit beat out of them. I never brought the issue of race into this until someone else did; I merely said that a savage like that deserves to be put down like the animal he is -- regardless of his race, religion or education.

  67. Seriously though,  

    What's with the loud and obnoxious thugs on the subway with designer jackets and PSPs? You're really going to spend whatever money you have (God knows how you obtained it) on stupid shit like that instead of investing it on educating yourselves so you can correctly pronounce the word "ask"?

    That really grinds my gears. The problem is that social mobility in these communities is looked down upon. I'm not singling out the black community but instead the general thug community -- it's true that it's statistically comprised mostly of blacks and latinos, but I realize not all blacks and latinos are a part of this community (in case anyone was thinking of yelling at me for blaming their actions on the color of their skin).

    But the minute you start trying to get across the message to spend your money on an education rather than a T-Mobile Sidekick, you're labeled as a racist imposing "white" ideals onto another community. It has nothing to do with race at all. Hell, I'm a minority, but the values held by my family are far different from those of some families of the same race. As to the subjectivity of "social mobility", I think we can all agree that getting an education and a legitimate job is considered more socially acceptable than kicking the shit out of Asians for fun.

  68. Anonymous  

    I agree that there are people who do squander money on frivolous things, like clothes and cell phones, but there are lots of people are who are making a sincere effort to better their lives, and I don't think it's fair to judge everyone on public assistance based on people you see on the street.

    I definitely agree that nothing justifies what happened on Friday night, but trying to explain it by bringing your perception of what social conditions are like for poor people is completely uncalled for.

  69. just saying

    Why hasn't anyone figured out that when 13 year olds get indoctrinated in churches accusing the "white man" or "the system" of infecting blacks with AIDS or addicting them to crack... that random beatings are a potential outcome.

    Would it be racist to suggest that?

  70. Anonymous

    Herrnstein and Murray got it right in The Bell Curve.

  71. CC 07

    In a general sense, I think that anyone here would agree that being poor is bad and that anyone who is putting a legitimate effort to overcome that 'should' be able to. I doubt that the parents of the guys who did this were trying to overcome much of anything.

    I really couldn't care less about their social conditions, whether they were poor, white or black, whatever. The real issue is that a couple of teenagers caused the death of a grad student this weekend. That's a tragedy.

    I don't often post on the Bwog, but the pseudo intellectual arguments here are ridiculous and out of place. Save it for lit hum.

    • i agree

      does it matter if "thug culture" is not representative of blacks/ hispanics in general? those teenagers chose to embody that stereotype when they attacked yu. why do poor people get to be racist? i realize that there is bias with regards to all these "american dream" stories- if you're on this blog, you probably go to columbia so yeah, it worked out for you... but people arguing that these experiences are invalide are ridiculous

  72. McFister

    I still think it comes down to strategic selection of victims. The kid wanted to beat somebody up, so he picked somebody he thought wouldn't fight back. Most of us aren't going to solve the social ills of the world, but at least we can learn to defend ourselves on dangerous streets.

  73. divide and conquer

    im asian it looks like white kids are entering this debate and using this asian kid's death to further demonize black people - which is not helping asians AND black people.

    bso/aaa should do a discussion together.

    • letsmarch

      Re- divide and conquer: [#171]
      quote: im asian it looks like white kids are entering this debate and using....unquote

      Who do you think you are? I'm asian too and I hate fake "objective" morons like you - you deserve to live in a ghetto with your allies, there is nobody here trying to "demonize" black people! they are simply letting out their anger!!!!!! don't u understand?? fuck!!it's simply a fact that many black youths are violent and senseless! I myself was a victim of "black racism" on several occasions -- 1. a dumbass/black teenager shouted at me "give me your bag! give me your bag!" i didn't oblige because i figured i could kick his ass if he dares to come up to me; 2. three kids, with an adult, just started shouting racial slurs at me while i walked past them, for no reason but ignorance and stupidity, but in this country, "racism" is the sacred weapon reserved for people of a certain color; 3. a bunch of bastards threw snowballs at me just for their mother-fucking fun!!! you know what, fuck them! fuck their 18 generations of ancestors! I don't give a damn shit if i'm accused of being a racist, so what? those three black animals should be executed immediately! and YOU should be ashamed of yourself for accusing people of "demonizing" some people -- i am asian and i have black friends too, but I don't pretend to be "objective" or be a fake cxxt like you!

  74. amy

    i am an asian raised to treat everyone equally. i never encountered any racism while growing up and i never had any racist thoughts about other races. now, i think i may have been too sheltered.

    i work retail in a neighborhood w/ a lot of different cultures. we never have any trouble from other races. from the thousands of customers i encounter every month, it is only black customers who make trouble. they steal, break merchandise, yell, and have even hit our employees. they make trouble just for fun and try to make us angry. i've now become very jaded about these "ghetto" black people.

    i'm not saying all black people are like this. most black customers are very nice and courteous. it is a small minority of "thugs" that make all this trouble.

  75. no parents?

    In a perfect world, we would find those boys' parents and extradict them, along with the boys, to China, where real justice would be meted out.

  76. mike

    not sure what to make of the arguments

  77. lets march

    Re- divide and conquer: [#171]

  78. Anonymous  

    this threat has made me ashamed to be a student at Columbia.

  79. susan

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